KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: MooseMax on November 11, 2014, 12:01:26 AM
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The one on my People 250 doesn't extend any more when fed 12 volts. A new Kymco bystarter is costly ($60), so i'm thinking of using a generic one for 250cc scooters, like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/250cc-Chinese-Scooter-Electronic-Choke-Electric-Enrichment-Fits-172mm-CF-MOTO-/380843605507 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/250cc-Chinese-Scooter-Electronic-Choke-Electric-Enrichment-Fits-172mm-CF-MOTO-/380843605507)
Are all bystarters for 250cc bikes pretty much a universal fit?
If it means anything, mine has a brass collar about 9 mm long, and the needle is about 11 mm. Two wires.
(http://i.imgur.com/44Opspu.jpg)
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I don't know the answer but every time I try to retrofit, it is just easier getting what fits and get back to problem free riding. The one for my Riva is 250 plus, so 60 dollars is not that much.
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when are you do this since.
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They are exactly the same part/made in the same factory.
Be SURE to use some motor oil to lube those tiny "O" rings. Just a drop from the dip stick is fine. The "O" ring will tear if you don't
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Update -
I couldn't see spending $60 for something that helps for 60 seconds, so i tried the $10 bystarter - it seems to be working fine. The only problem is the old retaining clip doesn't fit (the flanges on the bystarter are too short to secure the clip). So i improvised a mounting bracket with a paper clip, cable ties, and some other parts. MacGyver would be proud. ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/mTacQ0M.jpg)
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That bystarter looks wrong for your engine..... It's too tall, i think they sent you the wrong one.
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Wrong one. but what the hell... as long as it works. Take the xtra 50 bucks, and drink away any miss-givings.
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Yeah haha that's really all that matters. I have one for the S250, only difference is the connector. I'd sell it for $25 shipped. All you have to do it switch the connector.
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Thanks for sending your bystarter, B&L. I still have the same problem i had with the old bystarter, so i think something else is wrong. When the engine is nicely warmed up (riding more than 5 minutes) it hesitates & stumbles accelerating from idle, and loses power below 10-15 mph. At higher speeds it's fine. The low-speed screw is 2.5 turns out (the manual recommends 2.5 +/- 0.5). Any idea where the problem lies?
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Thanks for sending your bystarter, B&L. I still have the same problem i had with the old bystarter, so i think something else is wrong. When the engine is nicely warmed up (riding more than 5 minutes) it hesitates & stumbles accelerating from idle, and loses power below 10-15 mph. At higher speeds it's fine. The low-speed screw is 2.5 turns out (the manual recommends 2.5 +/- 0.5). Any idea where the problem lies?
Darn!!! Does the bike ride good when totally cold? Could be, clogged air filter making the bike too rich. List what you have tried so far and how many KMS you S250 has on it.
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the 2.5 turns is just a guide line. Not the rule.
Turn that smaller screw (mix screw) either way till you get the highest rpm. Then adjust the rpm w/ the larger screw. Keep repeating that till you have the BEST ilde. That is the proper setting. Then you turn the screw 1/4 turn counter clockwise. That will slightly enrich the circuit.
See how that goes. before buying more parts.
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It's a regular People 250, not the S250. It has at least 10k kilometers (broken speedo cable when i bought it).
It runs fine when the engine is cold. Haven't tested it in air temps below 55 degrees. It seems worse when the engine is very warm, like when the radiator fan comes on.
I tried turning the low-speed screw 1 turn either way and idle didn't increase. Idle slowed when i turned it in.
I don't know when these air filters need replacing, but i ordered a new one. The old one is below..
I haven't done much else. I didn't take apart the carb. The hoses seem in good condition, no cracks or kinks.
Could it be a bad spark plug cap? The old plug that came with the bike had a broken ceramic tip and the plug cap is chipped in a few spots.. almost as if it was hammered from the side (!). I trimmed 1/2 inch from the plug wire while i was down there.
(http://i.imgur.com/uQek6ng.jpg)
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well the filter is pretty dirty, and a cap for the plug is cheap.
when you turn the screw counterclockwise keep going till the idle slows down. Then go back clockwise till it increases to it's highest. Then back 1/4 turn. See how that does...
If it runs good cold it may be the bystarter is working, and adding enough fuel for it to run. That indicates a lean mix when hot. Perhaps a vacuum leak on or under the intake?
Torn diaphragm in the carb?
Bad or clogged main jet?
Sticking petcock?
Perhaps a bad coil or stator? sometimes they will falter when hot... Same for the cdi.
Lots of maybes. Keep chipping away at the small stuff.
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Everything Zombie said.
That filter is toaste, toss the new one in if you haven't yet. The Spec is 2.5 turns out but I've always found they work better at around 3 turns out. In fact my B&W factory setting is 3 turns out, has the identical carb to a People 250, the S250 carb is slightly different. I thought you had an s250 because you were asking about s250 parts!! You should open the carb and do a deep clean, not all that much to screw up just take your time and remember where everything goes, or draw a picture or whatever helps you remember. I suspect the slow jet is clogged, you have to use a very very small wire to clean it. I use one strand off a shifter cable for vespa/ stella style scoot. Works great. Or you can buy a can of the carb clean juice and soak it in there overnight. Almost every problem like yours roots from a dirty carb. Once reason why carbs are "worse". IMO having to clean parts is WAYYYYYYYYYY better than buying new throttle bodies, injectors etc. Have you done other routine maint stuff? Make sure valves are at .04mm, changed plug? DPR7EIX worked great for my 250. Valves would make sense, if one is too tight it'll be WAYY too tight when really hot and cause poor performance. The P250 is a kinda tight to adjust the valves, not too bad. You have to take the valve cover off with a friend sitting on the bike to get enough room, then it's easy. If I were you I would order a NGK Iridium DPR7EIX and do the valves and clean the carb. I would be surprised if it needed more than that @ 10k KMs. I've seen customers with over 50,000km on their P250, great motor. My buddy also has a 2005 silver P250 which we replaced every last plastic panel and made it like new. Anyway keep us posted, that way we can all figure it out together yay!!! :D
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Just a quick thought... Pull out that bystarter, and turn on the key. It has to move 4mm at least, and it takes about 45 seconds or a bit more.
Also measure the leghth of the old part cold. Compare that to the cold length of the new one. (Just the metal plunger)
It may be the choke +12v/gnd is bad or the parts do NOT interchange due to plunger length.
Just a thought...
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Good call, Zombie. There's no voltage going to the bystarter when the key is on. It moves 4 mm when connected directly to the battery.
I would think turning in the low-speed screw would compensate for the non-working bystarter, but it just seems to make it worse.
Anyway, i can't make sense of the wiring, so i'd like to splice in the bystarter somewhere else. Any recommendations where?
Not sure if it matters, but one of the bystarter wires goes to a resistor. The rest of the wiring diagram is on this page (http://www.scootermasters.com/manuals/People-250-Full-Manual.pdf#page=23).
(http://i.imgur.com/rr8nklM.jpg)
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B&L - i ordered an iridium plug - thanks. I actually had one before, but my shop thew it away and installed a regular NGK. They didn't know what it was! ::)
I've watched a few youtube vids on adjusting valves, and it seems pretty straightforward.
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Way cool.
Your bystarter is AC voltage supplied. It has a pair of opposing diodes, and a resistor to reduce the voltage from 250Vac to 12v ac/dc.
What we're (you're) gonna do is eliminate all that slop/extra components, and go direct for 12Vdc.
You're gonna have to pick up a new +12V that is key switched. ANY +12 will do. Maybe the seat light? maybe the blinker power BEFORE the switch? Any 12V that turns on w/ the key.
The yellow wire from the bystarter goes to that +12, and the green wire will go to ANY easy to get ground. Add a ring terminal, and double it up on the starter motor? Maybe one of the green wires to the lights... Any ground.
My guess is the resistor or one of the diodes failed. It's not hard to sort that out but it is a weak link, and will fail again.
I'm glad you double checked. Oh yeah... The idle mix will compensate for either choke or no choke but not both. The choke adds a LOT of extra fuel. More than the pilot jet can pass on its own.
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Way cool.
Your bystarter is AC voltage supplied. It has a pair of opposing diodes, and a resistor to reduce the voltage from 250Vac to 12v ac/dc.
What we're (you're) gonna do is eliminate all that slop/extra components, and go direct for 12Vdc.
You're gonna have to pick up a new +12V that is key switched. ANY +12 will do. Maybe the seat light? maybe the blinker power BEFORE the switch? Any 12V that turns on w/ the key.
The yellow wire from the bystarter goes to that +12, and the green wire will go to ANY easy to get ground. Add a ring terminal, and double it up on the starter motor? Maybe one of the green wires to the lights... Any ground.
My guess is the resistor or one of the diodes failed. It's not hard to sort that out but it is a weak link, and will fail again.
I'm glad you double checked. Oh yeah... The idle mix will compensate for either choke or no choke but not both. The choke adds a LOT of extra fuel. More than the pilot jet can pass on its own.
This resistors are to make it so the bystarter turns off slower. And yeah you won't see 12v with key on because it only powers up when the engine is ruining. The best test is to fully warm your bike up with the seat off, then quickly take out the bystarter and see if it's down. I have seen your diodes and resistors go bad before so could be your problem. Check the carb warmer for 12v dc (the two wires going to the bottom of the float bowl). Or just for testing just run a wire with switch directly from the battery. If it was in my shop i would completely clean the carb before messing with anything else.
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"And yeah you won't see 12v with key on because it only powers up when the engine is ruining."
Wow... Yup! You'd have to check w/ the bike running... 1/2 of Kymco is ac, and the other 1/2 of them are dc...
I was working the assumption it was a dc fired CDI bike but w/ an ac circuit firing the by starter...
In any event the bike would have to be started to show voltage.
My oversite..
Thanks B&L for spareing Moose from a death by many wires! I'd still check for voltage running...
Clean the carb. Then rake the lawn, and get us a couple cold ones... please.
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"And yeah you won't see 12v with key on because it only powers up when the engine is ruining."
Wow... Yup! You'd have to check w/ the bike running... 1/2 of Kymco is ac, and the other 1/2 of them are dc...
I was working the assumption it was a dc fired CDI bike but w/ an ac circuit firing the by starter...
In any event the bike would have to be started to show voltage.
My oversite..
Thanks B&L for spareing Moose from a death by many wires! I'd still check for voltage running...
Clean the carb. Then rake the lawn, and get us a couple cold ones... please.
The CDI is DC but the bystarter circuit in most Kymcos is ac fed. Idk why they didn't just do a key on 12v lol. I've had those resistors go out and throw me on a loop diagnosing the problem. Hey zombie where you at in Florida? I'm going for the first time this week, Lakeland and Tallahassee.
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Tallahassee is the closest "big city" to us. It's about an hour, and some from Carrabelle.
When are you coming? I have a buddy that owns a bar, and a condo right across the parking lot.
If you come to Fl, and we don't go get F'd up together I will curse your ancestors...
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I'm not sure when we're going to Tallahassee, and not sure what the car situation is.
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Let me know what/when/where. If I leave now.... I'll be there Mon-Tues..
We gotta set sumptin' up.
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Everything Zombie said.
That filter is toaste, toss the new one in if you haven't yet. The Spec is 2.5 turns out but I've always found they work better at around 3 turns out. In fact my B&W factory setting is 3 turns out, has the identical carb to a People 250, the S250 carb is slightly different. I thought you had an s250 because you were asking about s250 parts!! You should open the carb and do a deep clean, not all that much to screw up just take your time and remember where everything goes, or draw a picture or whatever helps you remember. I suspect the slow jet is clogged, you have to use a very very small wire to clean it. I use one strand off a shifter cable for vespa/ stella style scoot. Works great. Or you can buy a can of the carb clean juice and soak it in there overnight. Almost every problem like yours roots from a dirty carb. Once reason why carbs are "worse". IMO having to clean parts is WAYYYYYYYYYY better than buying new throttle bodies, injectors etc. Have you done other routine maint stuff? Make sure valves are at .04mm, changed plug? DPR7EIX worked great for my 250. Valves would make sense, if one is too tight it'll be WAYY too tight when really hot and cause poor performance. The P250 is a kinda tight to adjust the valves, not too bad. You have to take the valve cover off with a friend sitting on the bike to get enough room, then it's easy. If I were you I would order a NGK Iridium DPR7EIX and do the valves and clean the carb. I would be surprised if it needed more than that @ 10k KMs. I've seen customers with over 50,000km on their P250, great motor. My buddy also has a 2005 silver P250 which we replaced every last plastic panel and made it like new. Anyway keep us posted, that way we can all figure it out together yay!!! :D
MAN , THIS IS GREAT STUFF!
Like watching re-runs of "Gun Smoke" in German!!
Sign us, The Bosch EFI engineers in lab #16.
Hamburg Germany
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Veee luvv der Germans. Zay are Veryyyyy schmart. Und der Gunschmoke... Eeees' funny ya!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdBh54MoZRE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdBh54MoZRE)
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I know this post is pretty old but does anyone know where the resistor is located or if you have a picture of where it's mounted on the scooter? thanks!
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I found it, its on the Same bracket as the Regulator/Rectifier just above the exhaust.