KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stig / Major Tom on May 26, 2014, 12:42:57 PM
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How do linked brakes work? Do any KYMCO scoots have them? Why, why not? Advantages? Disadvantages? The Honda Metropolitan has them. Why? I read that they insure the rear will lock first, no matter how the brakes are used in a panic stop. True? Sort of a poor man's ABS?
Stig
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I don't know of any Kymco's with linked brakes. Linked brakes are not all the same but IMO most of them suck. Most linked brake systems are set up so that when you use the rear brake, you also get some front brake. The main purpose of traditional linked brakes of this type is to protect the idiots who are afraid to use their front brakes. I have only owned one motorcycle with linked brakes, a 83 Yamaha Venture which I put 72,000 miles on. Great bike but the brakes sucked. I doubt I would buy another bike with linked brakes. Honda puts linked brakes on all their scooters so they are unlikely to ever get my business.
Here's the main problem with most linked brakes. When you use your brakes, you really don't know how much is going to the front or rear brakes. In low traction situations or low speed tight turns, you can't use just your rear brake. Linked brakes add complexity and cost and weight to your bike while offering no real advantages to a skilled rider.
Moto Guzzi was the manufacturer that first introduced linked brakes. I don't believe any of their current models use it any more. Some companies like BMW use a system completely opposite from the traditional systems in that the front lever actuates the front and some rear brake and you can use the rear brake independently. I don't really have a problem with this.
Don't confuse linked brakes with ABS which does offer some real advantages.
If you have no idea how your brakes work and don't care to find out, then linked brakes shouldn't be a problem for you. In most situations you can't even tell if your brakes are linked.
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No Kymco use linked brakes. Only scooters I know of that do are newer Hondas like the Met and Ruckus. Like klavitor said they suck lol
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Linked brakes can be useful on small bikes like the Metropolitan where the small front drum is tough to really get a strong grip on, and needs help from the rear drum or lever to really stop in time. On the Met, the front brake lever will activate only the front brake, while the rear brake lever grabs rear brake first and then both. I usually use the rear brake lever as additional leverage on the front brake drum, but I admit it is hairy at times when I need max front braking and the rear wheel gets awfully light...
I would like Honda making front disc standard instead, but I guess they have to make room in the budget for EFI and other goodies on their littlest bikes. I prefer Kymco's hydraulic shocks and front disc brake over Honda's EFI, but not everyone will have the same priority.
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I just don't like the linked Honda brakes because those small scooters are fun to slide and you can't with them linked!!!!
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I had linked brakes on my previous Aprilia Atlantic 500. I only had a couple of emergency stopping situations in the five years of ownership. Each time they worked exactly as they should with quick, confident stops. I found them easy and great to work with for ordinary braking. I strongly recommend them. I highly object to people making statements like "they suck" when they have never ridden a scoot or motorcycle that had them. Lets honestly answer with experience please.
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I personally have ridden multiple time with links brakes. Personally, from experience, don't like them.
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Several Kymcos have linked brakes, i.e. my Xciting 500.
Applies rear brake with some front brake. Usually can't lock the front wheel unless you pull the dedicated front wheel brake too and hard.
It is a trade off between more safety for common people in daily riding situations and less safety for professional riders in extreme situations (very slippery surface).
Professionals probably won't use a Xciting on a Dakar rallye.
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I have had linked brakes and all 3 bikes/ scoots I have listed have them.
The linked brakes work wonderfully and always have for me in a non-racebike/ supersport situation. On a track bike or high performance streetbike, independent brakes are important so that limits of adhesion can be felt before loosing traction.
This is a moot point because on all of the small scooter's here, all ya should need to do is put yer feet down:)
Sam:)
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I had linked brakes on my previous Aprilia Atlantic 500. I only had a couple of emergency stopping situations in the five years of ownership. Each time they worked exactly as they should with quick, confident stops. I found them easy and great to work with for ordinary braking. I strongly recommend them. I highly object to people making statements like "they suck" when they have never ridden a scoot or motorcycle that had them. Lets honestly answer with experience please.
I put 72,000 miles on a bike with linked brakes. I think that counts as experience. They sucked. I also understand how brakes work so I fully understand the drawbacks and safety hazards involved with linked brakes.
For those who have owned bikes with linked brakes who really liked them. How did those linking the brakes make them any better than they would have been unlinked? Perhaps the situation with the Honda Met which had a crappy front brake might make some sense. People often say that their XXXXX had linked brakes and stopped really well. Thats because it had good brakes. How did linking them contribute? Nobody seems to be able to answer that.
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Lots of us enjoy our linked brakes and they have worked fantastically for us and contrary to what you said, I feel the don't "suck."
The linked brakes on my NT700's and my Goldwing give the feel of power brakes, easily modulated, safe and powerful.
Does you car/ truck, if you have one, have linked brakes? Nuff said:)
Sam:)
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Lots of us enjoy our linked brakes and they have worked fantastically for us and contrary to what you said, I feel the don't "suck."
The linked brakes on my NT700's and my Goldwing give the feel of power brakes, easily modulated, safe and powerful.
Does you car/ truck, if you have one, have linked brakes? Nuff said:)
Sam:)
I have owned many bikes with brakes that were, easily modulated, safe, and powerful. They were all unlinked.
Of course my truck has linked brakes. How does that relate to scooters/motorcycles?
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I had linked brakes on my previous Aprilia Atlantic 500. I only had a couple of emergency stopping situations in the five years of ownership. Each time they worked exactly as they should with quick, confident stops. I found them easy and great to work with for ordinary braking. I strongly recommend them. I highly object to people making statements like "they suck" when they have never ridden a scoot or motorcycle that had them. Lets honestly answer with experience please.
I have had a few emergency stopping situations and my unlinked brakes worked just fine. On the other hand, My venture with it's linked brakes would sometimes lock up the front wheel. Since I have always known how important the front brake is to stopping, I would end up using the front brake hard and the linking systems would add front braking from the rear pedal.
For braking on dry pavement, I really don't see much difference between linked and unlinked. Perhaps I ride in more extreme situations than most like on snow, ice or off the pavement. Linked brakes are dangerous in those situations. I could live with this if linked brakes offered me any real advantage in "normal" use, but they don't.
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I have had a few emergency stopping situations and my unlinked brakes worked just fine. On the other hand, My venture with it's linked brakes would sometimes lock up the front wheel. Since I have always known how important the front brake is to stopping, I would end up using the front brake hard and the linking systems would add front braking from the rear pedal.
For braking on dry pavement, I really don't see much difference between linked and unlinked. Perhaps I ride in more extreme situations than most like on snow, ice or off the pavement. Linked brakes are dangerous in those situations. I could live with this if linked brakes offered me any real advantage in "normal" use, but they don't.
I noted this for the 2015 Honda Forza....
"Front Brake / Single 256mm disc with twin-piston caliper with CBS (third front brake piston is activated upon application of rear brake)
Rear Brake / Single 240mm disc with single-piston caliper with CBS (one front brake piston is activated upon application of rear brake)"
Makes me think if Honda and Aprilia are using linked brakes -well, they aren't exactly back-water companies when it comes to building scooters.
Thanks for your reply
Scoot safely
Stig
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Going around a corner and hitting sand with the front brake activated is a huge nono. For that reason I don't think I'd like a linked brake for the rear brake lever.
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Going around a corner and hitting sand with the front brake activated is a huge nono. For that reason I don't think I'd like a linked brake for the rear brake lever.
For this reason - one should Never out-drive your eyeballs. And who brakes in corners?
("you're suddenly into sand? Just give her the beans and do a dirt track Steve McQueen!")
Then go back and pick up all your groceries when no body's looking.
Stig
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You cannot compare car brakes to motorcycle/ scooter brakes. It's a totally different ball game. On a motorcycle an avid ride SHOULD be able to modulate whatever combination of brakes are needed. Having the vehicle do that for you is not good IMHO. I like absolute control over what my bike is doing, I can choose if I want front brake, rear brake or any combination of the two.
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Stig Stig Stig, everyone isn't Mario Andretti on 2 wheels. Shame shame shame!
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For this reason - one should Never out-drive your eyeballs. And who brakes in corners?
("you're suddenly into sand? Just give her the beans and do a dirt track Steve McQueen!")
Then go back and pick up all your groceries when no body's looking.
Stig
I brake in corners when I want or need to. Is there some reason I shouldn't?
It's a skill everyone who rides should have.
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I noted this for the 2015 Honda Forza....
"Front Brake / Single 256mm disc with twin-piston caliper with CBS (third front brake piston is activated upon application of rear brake)
Rear Brake / Single 240mm disc with single-piston caliper with CBS (one front brake piston is activated upon application of rear brake)"
Makes me think if Honda and Aprilia are using linked brakes -well, they aren't exactly back-water companies when it comes to building scooters.
Thanks for your reply
Scoot safely
Stig
Honda and Aprilia have chosen to use linked brakes on SOME of their bikes. They have made the decision to dumb down those bikes to make them safer for unskilled riders at the expense of making them less desirable for those riders who really know how to use their brakes. That choice was most likely made by the marketing folks or lawyers not the engineers.
For those of you who have linked brakes, do you actually know how the ones on YOUR bike work? Which lever actuates which brake? How is the proportioning valve set up? Is it a fixed ratio or variable depending on how much pressure you use. Does it have a front brake delay? Is the linking system inactive below certain speeds or pressure? I doubt even 10% of the riders who own bikes with linked brakes could answer those questions.
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Here's one scenario where I was real glad not to have linked brakes. I was competing in a Gymkhana on my Aprilia Sport City 250. BTW, the triple discs on my Aprilia are outstanding. I used just the rear brake to control my speed in the super tight corners.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd131/shrinkinman/Bike%20Pics/Montevallo%20Top%20Gun/MontevalloFlatTrack054_zps4be9f8df.jpg)
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The Japanese manage just fine with their VFR800s and Silver Wings in Gymkhana from what I can tell. :-)
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We're beating up on Stig, ain't gonna happen. He's my scooter hero, done.
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For those of you who have linked brakes, do you actually know how the ones on YOUR bike work?
Not in depth. And I don't even care!
I am just a common rider who knows, that a Xciting scooter is suited for tarmac and not for snow/ice or mud or sand etc.
But I know that most riders (not the encouraged like you, but most) have neither theoretical nor practical skills.
Many can't even brake properly in a straight line on dry tarmac.
That's why the European Union requires new motorcycles >125cc to have ABS or at least a linked brake (<=125cc).
I doubt even 10% of the riders who own bikes with linked brakes could answer those questions.
Same with every technical or physical item. Just to really understand "friction" requires a profound knowledge of quantum mechanics.
But as Bernt Spiegel (senior driving instructor and university prof) said: A child can ride his bicycle without any graduation in physics.
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We're beating up on Stig, ain't gonna happen. He's my scooter hero, done.
Not beating up on stig. He asked this question and I'm giving him my answer.
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How do linked brakes work? Do any KYMCO scoots have them? Why, why not? Advantages? Disadvantages? The Honda Metropolitan has them. Why? I read that they insure the rear will lock first, no matter how the brakes are used in a panic stop. True? Sort of a poor man's ABS?
Stig
I think I answered some of these questions already. As for insuring that the rear will lock up first, not so. They normally route more braking power to the front brakes since that is what most people underuse. However, Linked brakes are not all the same. Some of the newer systems from BMW and Ducati work completely opposite from most of the older systems. They allow independent use of the rear brake while routing some braking from the front lever to the rear brake. I don't believe any scooters use this type of system.
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Not in depth. And I don't even care!
I am just a common rider who knows, that a Xciting scooter is suited for tarmac and not for snow/ice or mud or sand etc.
But I know that most riders (not the encouraged like you, but most) have neither theoretical nor practical skills.
Many can't even brake properly in a straight line on dry tarmac.
That's why the European Union requires new motorcycles >125cc to have ABS or at least a linked brake (<=125cc).Same with every technical or physical item. Just to really understand "friction" requires a profound knowledge of quantum mechanics.
But as Bernt Spiegel (senior driving instructor and university prof) said: A child can ride his bicycle without any graduation in physics.
This is sad but true. However, if you want to get the most out of your linked brakes, you should have some idea how they work. Unfortunately, it is pretty much impossible to really tell what your linked brakes are doing. This is one of the reasons I dislike them. With regular brakes, I can use just the rear brake and see how it works. Then I can do the same with the front. With linked brakes you never know how much braking is going to the front or rear brakes. If you just want to squeeze the brakes without thinking about it, then linked brakes will not be bad for you. That's who they are made for.
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Never really understood why you don't brake in a corner while on
'forked" front wheels - but is less of a risk if you are on a Vespa with that one-side mounted front wheel. I have read this in several places over the past few months.
Nevertheless, linked brakes are listed as though they were a bonus feature on some scoots.
But, while I seem to have everybodies attention - this would be a good time to revisit "The Myth Of Counter Steering".....
wait, wait, give me a minute to get some chips & dip.
OK. Have at it!
;) Just joking....
All of the replies here have been appreciated - and some have even been educational!
(so, the next time I see a sand pile coming at me in a corner - I will give it the beans and lean over and keep staring at my rear tire in order to see what happens when I play with each brake lever!)
Speed gets a lot of folks in trouble.....I think all the rest of the trouble comes at us on 4 wheels.
Hopefully, darn few of us are at risk because of poor maintenance of our scoots.
Stig
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Every MC and Scooter I've owned over the past 30 years had conventional non-linked brakes until I bought a Honda Big Ruckus. The execution of the linked brakes on that Scooter is so transparent I didn't know there was a problem until I started reading the Battlescooter section on ADV.
Only had one panic stop on that Scooter, braked with more G-force than any experienced in the past, missed the stop sign runner, stopped straight and short.
So I did a little research on linked brakes.
Moto Guzzi installed the first linked (integrated) braking system on their Motorcycles in 1975. Testing showed that stopping distances were shorter with the linked system than with the same motorcycle fitted with conventional brakes. At the time, linked brakes were considered a major innovation in motorcycle braking technology.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wso...brakes&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=wso...brakes&f=false)
Honda apparently thought enough of that idea to fit linked brakes on the 1983 GoldWing. Since then every Honda GoldWing has been fitted with some form of linked brakes.
A number of other major and minor MC and Scooter Manufacturers have since fitted their products with some form of linked brakes. These folks are in business to sell product and make money. Here are some Italian brands:
http://motorcycle.pikimal.com/top/10...d-brake-system (http://motorcycle.pikimal.com/top/10...d-brake-system)
Here is a very basic explanation of how linked brakes work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_braking_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_braking_system)
Don't know who this fellow is but he certainly has written an interesting article explaining Motorcycle braking systems as used in real world situations:
http://old.nabble.com/The-Low-Down-o...-p4868174.html (http://old.nabble.com/The-Low-Down-o...-p4868174.html)
So here we are 37 years later with millions of MC's and Scooters manufactured by a number of different brands equipped with some form of linked brakes.
Apparently the NHTSA has noticed this development:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/p...ycle45-46.html (http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/p...ycle45-46.html)
Under very limited circumstances (loose gravel/wet grass/low speeds) are linked brakes known to not work as well as conventional brakes. I try to ride accordingly and that problem hasn't presented itself often enough to bother.
Valentino Rossi and Mat Mladin would be slower with linked brakes; they are professional racers riding on optimal machinery in a closed environment. I just want to safely ride to work or for relaxation in the evening or on weekends.
Linked brakes work pretty well on MC's and Scooters.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCombined_braking_system&ei=LSGGU4nPGdKbyASAoILAAw&usg=AFQjCNGCBGX1EKXjyoLf3i2SNX1zjXtycQ&sig2=n7joIUv3m4QiquU6-_en9w&bvm=bv.67720277,d.b2U (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCombined_braking_system&ei=LSGGU4nPGdKbyASAoILAAw&usg=AFQjCNGCBGX1EKXjyoLf3i2SNX1zjXtycQ&sig2=n7joIUv3m4QiquU6-_en9w&bvm=bv.67720277,d.b2U)
Not my words but from another M/C site.
Sam:)
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Never really understood why you don't brake in a corner while on
'forked" front wheels - but is less of a risk if you are on a Vespa with that one-side mounted front wheel. I have read this in several places over the past few months. This is pure myth. There is no problem braking in a curve IF DONE CORRECTLY
Nevertheless, linked brakes are listed as though they were a bonus feature on some scoots. Of course any manufacturer who offers it will list it as a great feature
But, while I seem to have everybodies attention - this would be a good time to revisit "The Myth Of Counter Steering".....
wait, wait, give me a minute to get some chips & dip.
OK. Have at it!
;) Just joking....
All of the replies here have been appreciated - and some have even been educational!
(so, the next time I see a sand pile coming at me in a corner - I will give it the beans and lean over and keep staring at my rear tire in order to see what happens when I play with each brake lever!)
Speed gets a lot of folks in trouble.....I think all the rest of the trouble comes at us on 4 wheels.
Hopefully, darn few of us are at risk because of poor maintenance of our scoots.
Stig
Regardless of whether you like or dislike linked brakes, you will be safer if you know how to properly use your brakes. Linked brake systems vary greatly so it would be a good idea to learn how your system works and what hazards it could have as well as how it affects your braking.