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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vivo on October 10, 2013, 02:34:45 AM

Title: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 10, 2013, 02:34:45 AM
Counter steering....   The art of safe riding....




(http://xbhp.com/ridesafe/images/countersteering/countersteering.jpg)



(http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/motorcycle-road-code/gfx/countersteering.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: de-dee on October 10, 2013, 02:49:10 AM
safety counsel is starting to show us that, in the riding school, the first coarse I took 25 years ago did not,
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 10, 2013, 02:55:17 AM
safety counsel is starting to show us that, in the riding school, the first coarse I took 25 years ago did not,

Right... even 10 years ago they don't teach this...
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Peters on October 10, 2013, 04:04:07 AM
But... If I steer left the bike should go left  ;) ;) ;)

Just kidding. As usual, awesome post Vivo.

Vivo For President!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 10, 2013, 05:17:32 AM
(http://image.sportrider.com/f/8858452+w750+st0/146_0110_zoom+ducati+front_side_view.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 10, 2013, 01:35:04 PM
I was taught countersteering in 1987 at my first MSF course in San Diego... about time the rest of the world catches up.   :)

To muddy the waters a bit, on the xc with the longer "cruiser" style rake you must pull the opposite handgrip to accomplish countersteering, i.e. while "pushing right to go right" at the same time pull the left handgrip.   

Great post, Vivo, with excellent illustrations!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 11, 2013, 01:30:08 AM
 :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 11, 2013, 07:47:44 AM
Sorry, but the entire "counter-steering" nonsense should be exposed as just so much 2-wheel baloney.  The photos here show the extreme BS involved.  Counter-steering is a term to describe certain high-speed dynamics in high-powered superbikes.  The average rider should not even be thinking of this high-tech stupidness.  All it does is spread confusion amongst normally safe bikers going about their daily rides to and from work.  I suspect that some 2-wheel instructors may be trying to puff up their already overblown egos by shoving this crap onto unsuspecting riders.

Huh? I do this all the time especially at higher speeds... Do you ride? How do you steer? corner at 50 or 60mph?  Maybe you ride slooow because one cannot counter steer at 10 or 20 mph...

Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: houndguy on October 11, 2013, 01:24:18 PM
It's sort of a hard concept to grasp.  I have to steer the opposite way???  It's just something you have to experience and experiment with. 
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 11, 2013, 06:59:45 PM
OK, just to clarify.....

In muddy water I push right to go right, pull right to go right and when you factor in high speed dynamics and slow speed stupidity and a couple slices of Overblown Baloney --- a simple fellow can get mighty confused. However, now I can explain clearly to Bernice why it is a 16 mile ride to my work place which is 3.5 miles distant. As a scooter rider I cannot turn left, or I am going too fast for the slow speed dynamics to kick in, or I have a touch too much rake, or not enough Baloney !

I make 43 rights, in increasingly wider arcs - until I see my boss standing on the sidewalk, OR I see a Tim Horton's donut shop!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Peters on October 12, 2013, 12:05:58 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering)
http://www.wikihow.com/Countersteer-%28Motorcycle%29 (http://www.wikihow.com/Countersteer-%28Motorcycle%29)
http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/07/23/land-of-the-lost/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/07/23/land-of-the-lost/)

Experience?... ehhh maybe. To quote my second source there, "Anyone who has turned a motorcycle at anything above idle speed has used counter steering - you just don't realize you're doing it." My guess is lack of knowledge of basic riding techniques by some unnamed members. A little reading will do amazing things. But in the end, most US scooter, especially full size scooter, riders are extremely lacking riding techniques and etiquette. Lots of tree hugging, save the planet pus...., hippies if you ask me. The kind that use words like baloney.  Might piss some people off...  :o . What it boils down to is if you think you might not know what you're talking about, you probably don't.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Calothrix on October 12, 2013, 02:23:22 AM
Counter steering is very counter intuitive.  When the subject was first brought to my attention by an instructor in an MSF motorcycle safety class about 15 years ago, I thought that can't be right....you push on the left handlebar to go to the left?!  So, the next time I was on the motorcycle, I focused on which way I pushed/pulled the handlebars as I entered a turn....and by gosh, the instructor was right!  So, even though I was using counter steering all along, I was not conscious of it until the instructor described it.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 12, 2013, 02:38:10 AM
It's sort of a hard concept to grasp.  I have to steer the opposite way???  It's just something you have to experience and experiment with.

It's actually more of pushing the handlebar down....left down... right down...

It's a hard concept to grasp if you havent done or tried it.... really...
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: johnson on October 12, 2013, 03:11:23 AM
I first tried it on my 125 Cali.  A couple of fellow riders with BIG scooters said I needed to do it to keep up with them in some twisties they were going to show me.  I thought, "yeah right!", cause I could always go faster than they could in the slow twisties we'd been on up to that point during several group rides.  10"-12" wheels will let you do that flick through the turns thing and you can go faster than the big bikes.   So. . . push down left, go left, etc. etc.  Faster and faster we went and suddenly I was outside the city in nowheresville.  I had to keep up with them to get back to civilization.  And around 30 mph it started to sink in.  You can't turn your front wheel at that speed.  Whadduhido?  Lean and push on the handlebars to keep them from buckling.  The side diameter of the tires is smaller than the center of the tires.  So you turn.  That last part I looked up after I got home and changed shorts. 

When I got the PS250 with 16" wheels I had to relearn it cause 16" gyroscopes don't want to turn once they start spinning.    I went straight for 3 or 4 blocks before I could turn a corner at speed to get to the first group ride with the new bike.   An extra 120 lbs and 5" of wheelbase make a big difference in how you maneuver a scoot.   
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: johnson on October 12, 2013, 03:17:53 AM
This discussion is a mute point unless you're riding a 110cc + scoot.  If I get my Honda Metro up to 30 (at the top of it's curve) I can maybe counter steer on a corner but that's the only time.   I'd have to scrape the lower panels to counter steer slower than that.   And it'd probably just lay down midway through the turn.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 12, 2013, 03:21:55 AM
This discussion is a mute point unless you're riding a 110cc + scoot.  If I get my Honda Metro up to 30 (at the top of it's curve) I can maybe counter steer on a corner but that's the only time.   I'd have to scrape the lower panels to counter steer slower than that.   And it'd probably just lay down midway through the turn.

I ride my old 100cc Honda at 50mph and I can counter steer on twisting roads...
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Peters on October 12, 2013, 03:43:54 AM
You can lean my people into a turn as far as you've got the balls to go. Besides, a major application for counter steering is when you're avoiding something in the road at the last second... Say some roadkill or a pothole. Counter steer can be used to very quickly to change direction of the bike and recover just as quickly. It's sort of an instinct... you don't really even think about it.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 12, 2013, 03:51:27 AM
You can even do it on a bicycle............... 

http://www.hakesport.com/counter-steering-on-a-bicycle/ (http://www.hakesport.com/counter-steering-on-a-bicycle/)




(http://www.hakesport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Counter-Steering-on-a-Bicycle.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: JJJoseph on October 12, 2013, 06:45:08 AM
Huh? I do this all the time especially at higher speeds... Do you ride? How do you steer? corner at 50 or 60mph?  Maybe you ride slooow because one cannot counter steer at 10 or 20 mph...
I've been racing & riding for longer than you've been alive.   It's intuitive on bicycles, but should be done with care on faster machines.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Peters on October 12, 2013, 07:11:38 AM
Quote
I've been racing & riding for longer than you've been alive.

Highly doubt that
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 12, 2013, 07:14:47 AM
I've been racing & riding for longer than you've been alive. 

Then you must be more than a hundred years old.... hmmm...

mobility scooters can't be counter steered... :P
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 12, 2013, 11:58:52 AM
please see my last post.....
it is ALL explained clearly there!
Bernice is good with it...........
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 12, 2013, 12:03:01 PM
Where's the headbang smilie?!!

Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 12, 2013, 12:11:46 PM
Sorry, but the entire "counter-steering" nonsense should be exposed as just so much 2-wheel baloney.  The photos here show the extreme BS involved.  Counter-steering is a term to describe certain high-speed dynamics in high-powered superbikes.  The average rider should not even be thinking of this high-tech stupidness.  All it does is spread confusion amongst normally safe bikers going about their daily rides to and from work.  I suspect that some 2-wheel instructors may be trying to puff up their already overblown egos by shoving this crap onto unsuspecting riders.

Try it on a bicycle dude, just try it.  Then shut the he!! up you're the one confusing people.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 12, 2013, 01:10:30 PM

I hope we can all agree that a scooter, or any two wheeled vehicle for that matter, is turned, at speeds greater than approximately 15 mph, by leaning.  Under 15 mph it can be turned by steering the front wheel in the direction you intend to go.  Agreed?

So, in the simplest of terms, counter-steering is a method to force your two wheeled transportation to lean, thus initiating a turn.

I will leave it at that for now... 

Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 12, 2013, 01:33:04 PM
I hope we can all agree that a scooter, or any two wheeled vehicle for that matter, is turned, at speeds greater than approximately 15 mph, by leaning.  Under 15 mph it can be turned by steering the front wheel in the direction you intend to go.  Agreed?

So, in the simplest of terms, counter-steering is a method to force your two wheeled transportation to lean, thus initiating a turn.

I will leave it at that for now... 


You win a donut!
(please watch for the FedEx man)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: johnson on October 12, 2013, 08:53:44 PM
Two donuts.  I'm buying. 
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 12, 2013, 09:03:33 PM
http://youtu.be/C848R9xWrjc (http://youtu.be/C848R9xWrjc)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 12, 2013, 11:49:07 PM
Doooonuuuuts, yum!

Now get out there and ride damit stop talking about it like a clutch of little old ladies.  I want to here some parts dragging counter steering induced yeehaws!   ;D
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: cochi on October 13, 2013, 12:09:03 AM
Hi guys, this is my first post on this forum. I've been riding motorcycles for more years than I care to admit. I'm new to scootering and having a blast. The video posted by cosmokorny is one of the best I've seen on counter steering. Vivo thanks for starting this thread.  As for the fellow who thinks that counter steering is bunk, he may come from a parallel universe where the laws of physics are a bit different than the ones we have here! cochi ;)   
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 13, 2013, 12:13:48 AM
Doooonuuuuts, yum!

Now get out there and ride damit stop talking about it like a clutch of little old ladies.  I want to here some parts dragging counter steering induced yeehaws!   ;D

Am riding~!! Put in 31 miles before the sun came up this morning!
Very chilly - learning to layer - and scarf the lower face. Wondering what I will do when it's about 5 degrees F and I should not be cracking the face shield to prevent fogging. Frozen nose and corneas?
Too cold to think about counter steering around the deer and racoons in the dark - just do it or pay the consequences!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 13, 2013, 12:16:39 AM
Hi guys, this is my first post on this forum. I've been riding motorcycles for more years than I care to admit. I'm new to scootering and having a blast. The video posted by cosmokorny is one of the best I've seen on counter steering. Vivo thanks for starting this thread.  As for the fellow who thinks that counter steering is bunk, he may come from a parallel universe where the laws of physics are a bit different than the ones we have here! cochi ;)   
Greeting cochi~!!
Whatcha riding?
Pictures?
Snow rider? (I'm looking for encouragement!)
Welcome & Ride Safe (whichever way you're leaning!)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: cochi on October 13, 2013, 12:46:34 AM
Stig, I have a 2013 Like 200i in red. I know that you have the blue and white. That's a gorgeous color combo. I see why you love yours! This thing is a hoot to ride and peppy as hell. It's just as quick to 30mph as my 03 Royal Enfield 500. I live in Philadelphia and I commute with it every day. I bought it this past July and I've got 1200 miles on her and she's getting better as the miles accumulate. I'm looking forward to taking some trips to the country side this spring and summer. she also counter steers beautifully!! cochi :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 13, 2013, 01:09:03 AM
Stig, I have a 2013 Like 200i in red. I know that you have the blue and white. That's a gorgeous color combo. I see why you love yours! This thing is a hoot to ride and peppy as hell. It's just as quick to 30mph as my 03 Royal Enfield 500. I live in Philadelphia and I commute with it every day. I bought it this past July and I've got 1200 miles on her and she's getting better as the miles accumulate. I'm looking forward to taking some trips to the country side this spring and summer. she also counter steers beautifully!! cochi :)
Super~!
I darn near bought the red......he was writing up the paper-work on the red when I found the blue/white across the shop by the racks of helmets (lousy salesman. "Does it come in any other colors?" No, just red and black.)
It is quick off the line in traffic - I'm no fly-weight nor a racer - but I get to the next light and look in my mirrors and......Shoot, I'm scootin~!!
We have a lot of LIKE info on here - like how to find your scoot's birthday, etc.
As a previous motorcycle owner - will you be doing your own servicing?
Ride safe over there in Philly.
Stig
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: JJJoseph on October 13, 2013, 07:51:57 AM
Try it on a bicycle dude, just try it. 

Oh, now I get it - this thread is about BICYCLING!  No wonder I got confused.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: de-dee on October 13, 2013, 11:35:51 AM
  no no joseph its tricycle,.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 13, 2013, 02:10:28 PM
Pay attention boys, it is now about donuts and pretty paint jobs.  Keep up.   :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 13, 2013, 02:16:22 PM
And birthdays. 


(http://i43.tinypic.com/sxorxl.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 14, 2013, 01:25:38 AM
Hi guys, this is my first post on this forum. I've been riding motorcycles for more years than I care to admit. I'm new to scootering and having a blast. The video posted by cosmokorny is one of the best I've seen on counter steering. Vivo thanks for starting this thread.  As for the fellow who thinks that counter steering is bunk, he may come from a parallel universe where the laws of physics are a bit different than the ones we have here! cochi ;)

Welcome to the forum cochi...  ;)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: cochi on October 14, 2013, 11:14:03 PM
Thanks for the welcome! I know that we've gotten a bit off topic, but yes Stig, I do my own servicing. The initial 600 mile service was done at the dealer. However, I'll be doing the rest. about 20 years ago, I took a break form my career, (Mid-life crisis). Since I was handy with tools, a good friend put me to work at his Yamaha store. It was a great experience and I learned much about servicing motorbikes. It was the best job I ever had and it got my fried brain back in order. I'm looking forward to learning  more about scootering from the folks here. cochi :)   
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: ScooterCommuter on October 16, 2013, 03:26:56 PM
As a natural consequence of the steering geometry and dynamics of any bike or scooter, at any speed above about 15 mph a normal steering input to the right will induce a lean to the left and turn the bike left.

"Push right, go right, push left, go left" is the easy way to remember it, but call it "push lightly on the inside bar to increase your lean angle" is a more comprehensive description, just not so easy to teach or remember.

There are folks out there who continue to disbelieve and they carry on spouting off. These are often older riders, folks who learned to do it by trial and error, setting it into their muscle memory without truly realizing what they were doing. (Because if they hadn't learned it, they would never have got to BE older riders!)

They were taught to "steer by leaning", and that's what they did, never quite realizing that as they shifted their body to lean, they were pushing downward and away on the inside bar.

Alternatively they could simply be trolls, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. ;)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 16, 2013, 03:43:21 PM
As a natural consequence of the steering geometry and dynamics of any bike or scooter, at any speed above about 15 mph a normal steering input to the right will induce a lean to the left and turn the bike left.

"Push right, go right, push left, go left" is the easy way to remember it, but call it "push lightly on the inside bar to increase your lean angle" is a more comprehensive description, just not so easy to teach or remember.

There are folks out there who continue to disbelieve and they carry on spouting off. These are often older riders, folks who learned to do it by trial and error, setting it into their muscle memory without truly realizing what they were doing. (Because if they hadn't learned it, they would never have got to BE older riders!)

They were taught to "steer by leaning", and that's what they did, never quite realizing that as they shifted their body to lean, they were pushing downward and away on the inside bar.

Alternatively they could simply be trolls, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. ;)

I would argue that same riders who "learn by experience" never truly learn to ride.

It is often these very same veteran riders who teach n00bs to never use the front brake lest they go flying over the handlebars.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Croak on October 16, 2013, 06:21:31 PM
"Countersteering is bunk, don't ever use the front brakes because they'll kill you, loud pipes save lives, helmets are for sissies, and if you get in trouble, lay 'er down."

That about sums up the riding knowledge of most Harley riders.

Anyway, watch this:

counter steering-keith code (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5Z3jyO2pA#)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 16, 2013, 06:28:05 PM
For those still following this thread, here's a good technique teaching video.

http://youtu.be/tSOn7IhTnMM (http://youtu.be/tSOn7IhTnMM)

Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 17, 2013, 12:49:22 AM
"Countersteering is bunk, don't ever use the front brakes because they'll kill you, loud pipes save lives, helmets are for sissies, and if you get in trouble, lay 'er down."

That about sums up the riding knowledge of most Harley riders.

Anyway, watch this:


{What about waxing that girl's helmet ?! Mum & Dad left her quite vulnerable to The Beams!!}
I hope to Hades I don't put my scoot into the shrubbery tomorrow morning after watching this!
I used to know how to get 'round a corner !!
This is all great stuff - but the ONLY things I think about when 'rounding a corner are:
Move close to center to see around the bend.
Watch for debris.
Look through the turn with head up.
In short: I'm sure I must be counter steering but I hope I don't start thinking about how to turn a scooter!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 17, 2013, 12:59:37 AM
{What about waxing that girl's helmet ?! Mum & Dad left her quite vulnerable to The Beams!!}
I hope to Hades I don't put my scoot into the shrubbery tomorrow morning after watching this!
I used to know how to get 'round a corner !!
This is all great stuff - but the ONLY things I think about when 'rounding a corner are:
Move close to center to see around the bend.
Watch for debris.
Look through the turn with head up.
In short: I'm sure I must be counter steering but I hope I don't start thinking about how to turn a scooter!

Don't try new stuff on the street.  Take a rider course.  Find an empty parking lot and practice practice practice. 
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 17, 2013, 02:03:50 AM
And Stig, teach the aliens once they beam you up again....  ;D
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 17, 2013, 02:14:24 AM
And Stig, teach the aliens once they beam you up again....  ;D

Lol I'm beginning to suspect Stig is Vivo's alter ego.

Regarding counter steering Stig worst thing that could happen is you'll learn how to have some serious fun on that bike.   :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 17, 2013, 02:43:34 AM
Lol I'm beginning to suspect Stig is Vivo's alter ego.

Regarding counter steering Stig worst thing that could happen is you'll learn how to have some serious fun on that bike.   :)

Right you are! I mean the fun thing...  when I approach a curve at, say 40mph... I don't hit the brakes or decelerate... I just steer....smooth....
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: 245luigi on October 17, 2013, 12:58:29 PM
So I didnt know counter steering existed until I saw this thread (And I have a degree in physics!).

Can you guess what my new favorite thing to do while riding is???? :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 17, 2013, 11:01:44 PM
I saw the guy in the video countersteering using just one finger.
I got to thinking about all the stuff I could do on my ride home now that I've freed up the other 9.
On the way home I bought a few more bungies and rented this baby...........


You ain't lived until you've experienced the wail of 163cc's and Handel's Water Music coming at you on a dark city street at 5 AM.

Practicing my music & scooterin' in the Mid West
Stig
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 18, 2013, 01:29:06 AM
So I didnt know counter steering existed until I saw this thread (And I have a degree in physics!).

Can you guess what my new favorite thing to do while riding is???? :)

Lol! Maybe they should teach scootering in Physics 101...



(http://xbhp.com/ridesafe/images/countersteering/tyre-profile-and-turns.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: 245luigi on October 18, 2013, 02:40:07 AM
"Applied Rotational Dynamics with an Emphasis on 2 Rotating Rings Fixed Together with a Bar Via Their Centers 101"
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 18, 2013, 03:03:48 AM
"Applied Rotational Dynamics with an Emphasis on 2 Rotating Rings Fixed Together with a Bar Via Their Centers 101"

Couldn't have said it better....   ;D 
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 18, 2013, 03:13:43 AM
Physics + adrenaline.  Sounds like a dangerous cocktail.  :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 18, 2013, 03:29:39 AM
Physics + adrenaline.  Sounds like a dangerous cocktail.  :)

+ wall    :o
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 18, 2013, 03:38:37 AM
+ wall    :o

Well, life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Peters on October 18, 2013, 04:46:54 AM
Whaahooo... Now we're learning...  ;D

Science looks great on paper. What I don't understand is all it takes is just going out and trying it. Suddenly you're a believer. Just go out on a quiet road and gently push one side of the handlebar and see what happens. Unbelievers would be stunned. You don't even have to be going that fast. Maybe 15 mph...

My philosophy is push the limits within a reasonable margin of safety for the benefit of learning. Learning the limits of your bike is a good thing. Getting comfortable with evasive maneuvers will benefit you. Let alone proven riding techniques...  ::)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 18, 2013, 05:29:14 AM
Whaahooo... Now we're learning...  ;D

Science looks great on paper. What I don't understand is all it takes is just going out and trying it. Suddenly you're a believer. Just go out on a quiet road and gently push one side of the handlebar and see what happens. Unbelievers would be stunned. You don't even have to be going that fast. Maybe 15 mph...

My philosophy is push the limits within a reasonable margin of safety for the benefit of learning. Learning the limits of your bike is a good thing. Getting comfortable with evasive maneuvers will benefit you. Let alone proven riding techniques...  ::)

I'll give you an A+   
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: wakeupmaggie on October 18, 2013, 11:53:57 PM
I found myself countersteering today while making that sharp little u-turn during my motorcycle license test.  It's not something I thought about doing though.  It was a natural action/reaction. 

By the way, I PASSED THE TEST!!!! 

I hired someone to work with me for a couple of hours before the test and she prepped me very well.  The test was taken on a Honda Elite 250.  Nice little scooter - beat up as it was.

Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 19, 2013, 12:11:00 AM
Congrats!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 19, 2013, 08:35:40 AM
Wow! nice!  ;)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 19, 2013, 01:12:46 PM
Well done, you!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 19, 2013, 02:56:50 PM
I found myself countersteering today while making that sharp little u-turn during my motorcycle license test.  It's not something I thought about doing though.  It was a natural action/reaction. 

By the way, I PASSED THE TEST!!!! 

I hired someone to work with me for a couple of hours before the test and she prepped me very well.  The test was taken on a Honda Elite 250.  Nice little scooter - beat up as it was.

I took the MSF basic rider course with my teenage boys this fall (I already had my license, just wanted to be on the same page as my kids).  There was a young lady in the class who just couldn't get the u-turn skill, so just before her test we spent a few minutes talking it through.  Something clicked, she went out and practiced it over and over and over... and she nailed it!!!  That was such a neat thing to watch.   :)  Sometimes all it takes is for that last piece of the puzzle to drop into place.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: cochi on October 19, 2013, 09:04:57 PM
Wakeupmaggie, congratulations on passing the test and getting counter steering down. The great thing about riding a two wheeled convenience, is that it's incredibally therapuetic. You will never see a motor scooter parked in front of a psychiatrist's office! cochi :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: wakeupmaggie on October 19, 2013, 11:19:51 PM
Thank you, everyone.  I was riding on my permit for about 18 months, so it was time to get my license once and for all.  I did fail the test a couple of months ago, but kept practicing and was determined to get it right this time.

I went out today for my first ride as a fully licensed rider and there was a smile on my face the whole time.

And while on my ride, I continued to practice and be aware of countersteering!  Scoot on!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: 08087 on October 20, 2013, 01:01:47 AM
Thank you, everyone.  I was riding on my permit for about 18 months, so it was time to get my license once and for all.  I did fail the test a couple of months ago, but kept practicing and was determined to get it right this time.

I went out today for my first ride as a fully licensed rider and there was a smile on my face the whole time.

And while on my ride, I continued to practice and be aware of countersteering!  Scoot on!

Hey WakeupMaggie, is there something you should be telling us or does your handle have to do with something other then a Rod Stewart song?
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: GPF590 on October 20, 2013, 12:44:22 PM
I found myself countersteering today while making that sharp little u-turn during my motorcycle license test.  It's not something I thought about doing though.  It was a natural action/reaction. 

By the way, I PASSED THE TEST!!!! 

I hired someone to work with me for a couple of hours before the test and she prepped me very well.  The test was taken on a Honda Elite 250.  Nice little scooter - beat up as it was.

Here in PA the test, at least the one given at the end of the safety course, involves a double u-turn (figure eight) while staying within a lined area.  It is done at pretty low speeds and our rider coaches instructed us to use the technique of counterweighting rather than countersteering.  Later on in the test we did do cornering and that was at higher speeds and did involve countersteering.  I will say that the cornering part of the test was almost like a high speed u-turn, although not a full 180.

Now I'm getting myself all confused. :) 

I passed as well, btw. :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 20, 2013, 01:20:54 PM
Counterweighting, lol, throw in dragging the rear brake while nursing the throttle be careful Mr. Stig is gonna need the men in white coats if we start duscussing slow speed turns.   ;D

Vivo, do you have the energy to start a new thread?
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 20, 2013, 01:23:32 PM
BTW, congrats GPF590!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 20, 2013, 07:26:02 PM
YES, the curse-ed "Figure Eight In A Rectangle From Heck"!
I learned this while attempting this manoeuvre  during the Ohio 2-wheeled riding test:

Do not sweat this manoeuvre - if you perform all the other portions of the riding test with no issues, and you do not drop their precious piece-of-crap Yamaha dirt bike, and do not run over the instructor, and do not depart the vicinity - you can fail this "8 Innabox" and still pass the test!

I did, and I did.

"counterweight/countersteer/counterculture/counterhelp/counterbalance/counterfeit/counteroffer/countersink and my favorite - counterclockwise!"

As Jeremy said to The Hamster : "Give it the beans!"
Which is French for, "Go ride your scooter."

Proof that I passed: official state DMV photo from my 2 wheel license.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 20, 2013, 08:25:54 PM
lol better than this
(http://i40.tinypic.com/25rjcqv.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 20, 2013, 08:34:14 PM
YES, the curse-ed "Figure Eight In A Rectangle From Heck"!
I learned this while attempting this manoeuvre  during the Ohio 2-wheeled riding test:

Do not sweat this manoeuvre - if you perform all the other portions of the riding test with no issues, and you do not drop their precious piece-of-crap Yamaha dirt bike, and do not run over the instructor, and do not depart the vicinity - you can fail this "8 Innabox" and still pass the test!

I did, and I did.

"counterweight/countersteer/counterculture/counterhelp/counterbalance/counterfeit/counteroffer/countersink and my favorite - counterclockwise!"

As Jeremy said to The Hamster : "Give it the beans!"
Which is French for, "Go ride your scooter."

Proof that I passed: official state DMV photo from my 2 wheel license.

My feeble attempt at "the rectangle", followed by avoidance maneuver.  Not too proud of either one but if you look closely there are examples of both counterweighting and countersteering. (btw I LOVED that Yamaha TW200.  Want me one!):

http://youtu.be/eWI0m_ZG4Wo (http://youtu.be/eWI0m_ZG4Wo)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: wakeupmaggie on October 20, 2013, 10:03:36 PM
Here in PA the test, at least the one given at the end of the safety course, involves a double u-turn (figure eight) while staying within a lined area.  It is done at pretty low speeds and our rider coaches instructed us to use the technique of counterweighting rather than countersteering.  Later on in the test we did do cornering and that was at higher speeds and did involve countersteering.  I will say that the cornering part of the test was almost like a high speed u-turn, although not a full 180.

Now I'm getting myself all confused. :) 

I passed as well, btw. :)

Congrats on passing your test!

The first time I took the NJ Motorcycle test in 1973, I had to do a figure 8 but they no longer have that in the test.  And I took the test on my Honda CB350 and honestly, I don't remember if I nailed the figure 8 or not.  I probably could have done it this time with the little Honda Elite I used on Friday.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: wakeupmaggie on October 20, 2013, 10:05:28 PM
Hey WakeupMaggie, is there something you should be telling us or does your handle have to do with something other then a Rod Stewart song?

My given name is Margaret, but when Rod Stewart's song became popular, people started calling me Maggie. 
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: wakeupmaggie on October 20, 2013, 10:06:24 PM
Hey WakeupMaggie, is there something you should be telling us or does your handle have to do with something other then a Rod Stewart song?

My given name is Margaret, but when Rod Stewart's song became popular, people started calling me Maggie. 
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: wakeupmaggie on October 20, 2013, 10:08:45 PM
Hey WakeupMaggie, is there something you should be telling us or does your handle have to do with something other then a Rod Stewart song?

Yes, I finally woke up and took the test.

My given name is Margaret, but when Rod Stewart's song became popular, people started calling me Maggie. 
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 26, 2013, 03:19:10 AM
http://youtu.be/3vkT6lJPGqg (http://youtu.be/3vkT6lJPGqg)

http://youtu.be/44njMo6M4Xk (http://youtu.be/44njMo6M4Xk)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on October 26, 2013, 03:32:33 AM
In racing:   to steer on a curve

In city riding:   to avoid an open man hole, road kill, dog sh**, a rock, a texting pedestrian, etc.

Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 26, 2013, 03:42:01 AM
In racing:   to steer on a curve

In city riding:   to avoid an open man hole, road kill, dog sh**, a rock, a texting pedestrian, etc.

lol an old rule of thumb is you can run over it if you can eat it in one sitting.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on October 26, 2013, 01:19:12 PM
]



Sure....clear blue sky......do NOT try this if it is foggy ...or if there is no roadside shrubbery. You'd be simply ASKing to be beamed up!
Also, this is a very dangerous maneuver if you have 5 gal. of warm chicken fat on the rear carrier. (ask my brother-in-law, Bert)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 26, 2013, 01:36:28 PM
Sure....clear blue sky......do NOT try this if it is foggy ...or if there is no roadside shrubbery. You'd be simply ASKing to be beamed up!
Also, this is a very dangerous maneuver if you have 5 gal. of warm chicken fat on the rear carrier. (ask my brother-in-law, Bert)

Yes.  And it only works in Wisconsin, try it in Ohio and you're screwed.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 26, 2013, 01:43:52 PM
Sure....clear blue sky......do NOT try this if it is foggy ...or if there is no roadside shrubbery. You'd be simply ASKing to be beamed up!
Also, this is a very dangerous maneuver if you have 5 gal. of warm chicken fat on the rear carrier. (ask my brother-in-law, Bert)

This was on my way home from Walmart so I had a five quart jug of Valovoline, oil filter, bag of Heath miniatures, tooth paste, dental floss and printer ink in the top box and three replacement wiper blades under the seat.   :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 26, 2013, 01:52:17 PM
In racing:   to steer on a curve

In city riding:   to avoid an open man hole, road kill, dog sh**, a rock, a texting pedestrian, etc.

1/2 correct.  I actively counter steer (for sake of this discussion countersteering is conscious input on the handgrips to turn front wheel opposite of or counter to the desired direction of travel) to initiate and during every turn at speeds greater than approximately 15mph.  It is important to be consistent so the "muscle memory" is there if you have to perform an emergency oh sh** maneuver.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on October 26, 2013, 07:58:11 PM
Avoiding the dog sh** slomo.   :)

http://youtu.be/IrmwBdJGP3Y (http://youtu.be/IrmwBdJGP3Y)

http://youtu.be/zValOHYB-0o (http://youtu.be/zValOHYB-0o)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on November 02, 2013, 02:27:16 AM
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/25/know-how-to-countersteer-correctly/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/25/know-how-to-countersteer-correctly/)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/muczgw.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on November 02, 2013, 02:35:15 AM
5. Rider leans more, picks up dime with teeth..




(http://rideapart.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/adey-770x433.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on November 02, 2013, 01:21:44 PM
IS there an incorrect way to countersteer? I mean, if you're not constantly on your back in the shrubbery - then you probably got it right, yes?

I mean, you do the thing with the scoot and you miss the squirrel -baddabing! Right?

You probably just countersteered correctly without having to pay for lessons or download a rasher of videos or read a chapter on a forum - whatta' we at here -10 pages on this forum thread!?
I'm going to have a donut and then go ride my scoot before it rains some more.

Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on November 02, 2013, 01:32:01 PM
5. Rider leans more, picks up dime with teeth..




(http://rideapart.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/adey-770x433.jpg)
Why would anyone do that to a perfectly good pair of undershorts?!
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on November 02, 2013, 01:34:29 PM
IS there an incorrect way to countersteer? I mean, if you're not constantly on your back in the shrubbery - then you probably got it right, yes?

I mean, you do the thing with the scoot and you miss the squirrel -baddabing! Right?

You probably just countersteered correctly without having to pay for lessons or download a rasher of videos or read a chapter on a forum - whatta' we at here -10 pages on this forum thread!?
I'm going to have a donut and then go ride my scoot before it rains some more.

In all seriousness, Stig, yes.  Input into the handlebars is the ONLY way to get the bike to turn quickly in an avoidance maneuver. Try it today, twice on the same curve, once with the bars, once with good old fashioned body english.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on November 02, 2013, 01:39:32 PM
...we are only trying to keep you alive so that you can eat more donuts.  Hell, come to think of it that's why I countersteer too.   ;D  And go ahead hit that squirrel I am pretty sure you could eat him in one sitting.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on November 02, 2013, 03:10:56 PM
...we are only trying to keep you alive so that you can eat more donuts.  Hell, come to think of it that's why I countersteer too.   ;D  And go ahead hit that squirrel I am pretty sure you could eat him in one sitting.
Yo !
Hey, you up there on the Kymco. You want to rethink that ....?
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2pyyu6e.png)

We can be everywhere you know.....
Think about it Gumby!
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2wpqogk.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: GPF590 on November 02, 2013, 08:32:13 PM
Ok, now let's talk about countersteering through a curve versus swerving around something!  Stig's head to explode in 3-2-1.............
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on November 02, 2013, 09:34:52 PM
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2hp6ma0.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on November 04, 2013, 01:45:48 AM
practice makes perfect... ;)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: JJJoseph on November 04, 2013, 04:30:02 AM
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/25/know-how-to-countersteer-correctly/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/25/know-how-to-countersteer-correctly/)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/muczgw.jpg)

Thanks for this, Corny. At last we have a very clear example of what the less-educated are trying to explain when they talk about "counter-steering".  Note that image 2 says "Front wheel out-tracks from turn", which sets the lean that starts the bike turning.  Then image 3 shows that "front wheel RECENTERS".  That's the end of the so-called "counter-steering".  The bike now turns with the wheel CENTERED.  The other photo below (click to enlarge) is NOT an example of "counter-steering", instead the rear tire is sliding outward.  It might look like "counter-steering", but it's actually drifting.  His nose-wheel is centered, not counter-steering.  We need to be really careful about what we're telling new riders because it's easy to confuse the heck out of them with this kind of road-race rubbish.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on November 04, 2013, 04:46:32 AM
Thanks for this, Corny. At last we have a very clear example of what the less-educated are trying to explain when they talk about "counter-steering".  Note that image 2 says "Front wheel out-tracks from turn", which sets the lean that starts the bike turning.  Then image 3 shows that "front wheel RECENTERS".  That's the end of the so-called "counter-steering".  The bike now turns with the wheel CENTERED.  The other photo below (click to enlarge) is NOT an example of "counter-steering", instead the rear tire is sliding outward.  It might look like "counter-steering", but it's actually drifting.  His nose-wheel is centered, not counter-steering.  We need to be really careful about what we're telling new riders because it's easy to confuse the heck out of them with this kind of road-race rubbish.

lol I'm confused when you start talking road-racing.    ??? 

Countersteering is a very complex subject;  I am hoping to limit this discussion to handlebar input.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on November 04, 2013, 04:50:12 AM
Hey Stig your squirrel played roulette with my Kymco today.  Today he won.
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Stig / Major Tom on November 06, 2013, 11:29:03 PM
Hey Stig your squirrel played roulette with my Kymco today.  Today he won.
No, you won - obviously you've never seen a squirrel grab a passing scooter and ..............
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2426buw.png)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on November 07, 2013, 01:46:30 AM
Ready when you are.. Stig...




(http://www.inspirefirst.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Superhero-Squirrels-Batman.jpeg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: CosmoKorny on November 07, 2013, 02:17:26 AM
Hey Stig you write this?

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2iraw5x.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on November 07, 2013, 02:38:49 AM
So....what's in here? no meat?.....




(http://0.tqn.com/d/homecooking/1/0/5/9/1/hotdogoctopus1.jpg)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Croak on November 08, 2013, 08:15:58 AM
Hey, off topic, but stay safe Vivo, hoping Yolanda isn't the bitch they're saying she'll be when she hits the PI. 
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on November 09, 2013, 03:11:23 AM
Hey, off topic, but stay safe Vivo, hoping Yolanda isn't the bitch they're saying she'll be when she hits the PI.

Thanks Croak! We survived!!! Yolanda's a wimp... Lol!  ;D
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Peters on November 11, 2013, 04:57:31 AM
Thanks Croak! We survived!!! Yolanda's a wimp... Lol!  ;D

Good to hear  :)
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Vivo on November 11, 2013, 05:05:29 AM
Good to hear  :)

but many did not survive...
Title: Re: Counter steering
Post by: Peters on November 11, 2013, 10:51:51 PM
I saw on the news... sad