Changed over to Synthetic Downtown 300i

[juice]

I have also noticed improved performance with synthetic oil . I do not belive it is my imagination . I truely belive synthetic oil has superior lubricity and have witnessed the improvement on several motors . Put whatever you want into your engines but please stop telling people they are ignorant , foolish , and generally insignificant because they choose to use products that you don't use unless you belive they may cause damage by using a product .

[old geezer]

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep121w/ronspitstop/id44.html

[Syl]

Synthetic vs original oil some good reading here http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/synthetic_vs_conventional_oil/index.html  I didn't say anything but "good reading"! Especially 5th paragraph down. I too noted a couple things different (better) when I switched over and I noted long ago on here some of the things that were bothering me. I am neither for or against I just hope the mechanic's where I had mine changed over were right.

[juice]

I am sure we could go on for months finding articles , charts and graphs to support our opinions . The point I was trying to make is that there is no need to be rude or condesending . You can express your opinion without being unpleasant .

[old geezer]

I am sure we could go on for months finding articles , charts and graphs to support our opinions . The point I was trying to make is that there is no need to be rude or condesending . You can express your opinion without being unpleasant .

Which one of us rude, condescending (you misspelled condescending) curmudgeons were you referring to?

I do have personal experience on this subject, having used synthetics for over 20 years and have done considerable research on the subject. I had rather post scientific studies rather than use terms like I feel, it feels like,  my butt dyno tells me this, or my cousin's brother in law who worked on cars once says this.

Without real data, you are just another person with an opinion. Any way this is the internet where every one is an expert.

[TANWare]

I am by far not an expert. I stated first out I have no scientific data, unfortunately where I did expect a change, top end, I noticed no significant change and have stated so.

The changes I can tell are not really ones there are tests for. The changes I've noted also only pertain to this bike. The design of another final drive may be that where increased lubrication for any reason has no real effect. A small engine that gains 0.5 HP, again a SWAG, at the low end may respond differently than a 1,200cc monster. There are just too many variables.

This is one reason I noted throttle position etc. While again I am no electronic instrument I had rode for 720 miles here, god know how many miles on other bikes, and my throttle input has always been reliable for the expected vehicle responce. To all of a sudden circumstantially have it change at the same time after all these years as placing in synthetic is suspect at best. Again you can have the opinion where experienced riders are wrong and I am having a placebo effect, but that is ok.

Unless geography has changed again at the same time something else is amiss. Where when on a 2 degree incline before the bike, feet up, had no roll back. my ballance is pretty good and sitting perfectly still I can feet up from a dead stop ballance the bike for at least 15 swecons usually before needing a rolling throttle. in these 15 seconds or so now the bike at that stopped incline, exact same spot, rolls backwrds instead of staying put. This is a scientific proof as incline and gravity do not lie. I should note on ceter stand at Idle I have never had real wheel creep.

Now I freely admit any, to all, of the changes could just be the first oil change to any better oil. Be that synthetic or not, my point is if you do not see these changes in your DT 300i as I have then a good synthetic may be a consideration. Again this may be subjective to the user as Dino oils are usually considered good enough, just not good enough for my personal choice.

And that is the primary point here too, it is a choice. Some would like to say synthetics are just a modern day snake oil, pun intended. Well I'll run those Cobras, Vipers and Pythons in my motor vehilces any day............................................

Edit; as a side note I changed over my V65 to synthetic with no percieved difference at all. That bike I got used with 17,000 mile on it so the engine is proably worn fairly well. Also the bike has so much power already a slightly better lubrication would go unnoticed. That bike litterally has 5x or more the rear wheel HP.

I also have percieved so far this is a very civil discussion, something I am glad for as this can be a hot topic for some.........................

[axy]

I am by far an expert. I stated first out I have no scientific data, unfortunately where I did expect a change, top end, I noticed no significant change and have stated so.

Te changes I can tell are not really ones there are tests for. The changes I've noted also only pertain to this bike. The design of another final drive may be that where increased lubrication for any reason has no real effect. A small engine that gains 0.5 HP, again a SWAG, at the low end may respond differently than a 1,200cc monster. There are just too many variables.

If you go through scientific data, you will notice that no oil manufacturer ever managed to prove ANY power gain with synthetic oils that would not fit inside statistical error/margin, but many were sued and paid dear fines for claiming miracles that cannot be proven.

1200 cc "monster" would in case of such possibility show more pronounced effect/improvement because relative gain would be higher. Smaller engines would not show anything measurable.

0.5 hp gain on 300 cc would not be possible even by changing air intake and exhaust, let alone oil type.

Finally, much bigger and measurable effects would be exerted and possibly measured and proven by factors seldom discussed like a) air temperature and consequential density b) rider position/frontal area/height c) helmet shape, size and position d) tire shape and type e) gasoline composition and quality f) surface friction g) especially, altitude; than oil type.

I have yet to hear a person that paid money for vehicle maintenance that does not claim "it runs better", where in reality there is no objectively measurable or noticeable effect. Placebo and auto-suggestion are known to cure serious diseases, why not make scooters run better?  

[TANWare]

I would perfer to pay the same price, not more. I am not the more money you throw at it the better it will be type. 0.5 HP is purely speculative at the rear wheel. Again it is a SWAG and used as an example.

I thought the same way, bigger engines and more original HP the more a lube could improve the situation. I have repositioned my thoughts here though as it does not seem to increase combustion etc but internal mechanical efficiency eventually to the rear wheel. Where one vehicle then essentially bennefits further than another.

Where we have stock 21 PS there is a dyno test with mods showing that going to 27 PS at the rear wheel, so yes 0.5 HP is easilly obtainable on these machines. 26 + ps without a remap too.

Also as per my edit; I spent the more money on my V65 with no percieved advantage(s). That one was my loss, but I did try..............

Edit; agreed palcebo can do many things and I have purposely made every attempt I can to avoid this. Again this is my personal experience and IMHO. All I can say is here there are differences, while not earth shattering, that the seat of my pants can tell.

[old geezer]

By the way, Usually by the 1st oil change the engines are starting to loosen up some and are starting to run smoother with a feel of more power.

[TANWare]

By the way, Usually by the 1st oil change the engines are starting to loosen up some and are starting to run smoother with a feel of more power.

Fully agree, this is why I discount engine noise and smoothness. they are too easily explained away by break in. I have only noted the changes I had that were instantanious and felt, although slight, substantial enough to notice. Again these can be explained even by using a better Dino oil at the first oil change. This is why i have tried to describe the change(s) noticed too, so if another users experieince is not the same a synthetic may be something to try out. Be that for the Engine or Final Drive........

Edit; someone else tell me where they got a $1.99 a quart Dino oil that gave them the same or better noticable results, I am there to try it out too on my next change, easily replacable if I dont like it................................

[juice]

Which one of us rude, condescending (you misspelled condescending) curmudgeons were you referring to?
If the shoe fits .

[TANWare]

off topic but; enough already, please stop this now! Name calling etc does not enhance a discussion. I am not picking on anyone but we should all be civil. Knowledge is never gained by any type of agression but will only further to entrench debated positions, it is our ability to get past that where we can all, especially myself, finally learn something.............

[Cortez]

TAN, there is no polite way about this, but no serious person will continue this discussion because none of the above can be attributed to synthetic oil, regardless of your personal experience. NHF

I've had the Downtown for a 2 day test ride, did about 600km on it, I've had the same 'experience' as
him just changing my jacket. No jacket = 90mph, light jacket = 85mph.

The windscreen is horrible for me (180cm/5'11") and the turbulence is among the worst I've experienced,
and the top speed is greatly affected by the wind.

I'll post a full review next week..
All in all, it's an excellent scooter, a lot more agile and responsive then I expected it to be.

[TANWare]

Been cold here so I am always riding with the same light jacket, haven't really had it warm enough here not too. So far this bike really only gives me one seating position so that is a constant.

The MP3 had a short wind screen and really beat me up with the wind. The reflex was about the same as the DT to me. Both of those other bikes though I only had to 60 indicated or so. I am 5'11" with a 30" inseam but I hadn't rode any other real windscreen bikes. I had always been on naked bikes before this.

The 2-3 MPH I got faster I call insignificant especially just as further breakin is the more likely reason. My surprise was the, albeit minor, sudden changes to low and midrange..............

Edit; glad to hear you got to try it out, As you can see the base of the bike is great for what it is, now like any other bike it becomes time to improve and customize for the end user..........

[racewalker]

Been cold here so I am always riding with the same light jacket, haven't really had it warm enough here not too. So far this bike really only gives me one seating position so that is a constant.

I always ware full gear, either leathers or textile suit. I have had the road come up to meet me once in 34 years of riding. I came out with out a scratch. I have seen road rash on others that didn't use protection. It isn't worth it. I also use a hi vis suit so I can easily be seen at night.