KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: Stig / Major Tom on November 18, 2018, 07:32:54 PM
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Maybe some Asian/Indian models?
Was watching Jay Leno's video of his "first new vehicle" - a 1981, 6 cylinder Honda CBX.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRG8h3Hy/0000six.jpg)
6 cylinders.....and air cooled!
I know they can squeeze a few more HP out of water cooled engines - but as an old VW owner, never saw the need for all those extra water cooling parts. Just more stuff to break, or leak.
Stig
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Sym are still doing HD200s that are air cooled, I believe :)
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Sym are still doing HD200s that are air cooled, I believe :)
Last review which I read of the 171cc SYM HD200 said it was water cooled.
Stig
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Trust me, those old air cooled things were never as reliable as later water cooled models. Slow riding in heavy traffic killed many engines prematurely.
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At least the Genuine Buddy 170 (http://www.genuinescooters.com/buddy170i.html) and Hooligan 170 (http://www.genuinescooters.com/hooligan.html) have oil coolers.
The discontinued Blur 220 (http://www.genuinescooters.com/blur.html) also had an oil cooler (http://www.motorscooterguide.net/Genuine/Blur/Blur-150-220i.html).
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Trust me, those old air cooled things were never as reliable as later water cooled models. Slow riding in heavy traffic killed many engines prematurely.
Scooters are typically forced air cooled, I wouldn't expect them to care much about being stopped in traffic.
I'd also heard it said that my (non-forced) air cooled 250 engine actually runs cooler at idle/slow speeds than it does running at highway speeds. As far as I can tell, that seems to be true.
Meanwhile, a water cooled bike has all sorts of additional avenues for catastrophic failure.
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Sure, & my old bug motor was much simpler than my Rav4 motor.
The bug motor is usually done before 100k.
I change the sparkplugs in my Rav at 110k.
I've owned both types in the same class roughly.
Sure I liked the stark simplicity of the S200, but I kept the HD200 instead. More power, better MPG with minimal additional maintenance.
In real world usage, over 6k on both bikes (a lot over 6k on HDs)..
Only big problem I've had with the HD (Knock on wood) was a fuel system issue. Both bikes have roughly the same fuel system so that was on SYM's execution in that regard than air vs. water.
Only notable issue with the S was the PAIR pipe broke. Both bikes use a similar system there too so no real point either way.
I ain't judg'n those who like the air cooled bikes. I get it. I like 'em too, but push comes to shove I prefer the more modern bike.
Scooters are typically forced air cooled, I wouldn't expect them to care much about being stopped in traffic.
I'd also heard it said that my (non-forced) air cooled 250 engine actually runs cooler at idle/slow speeds than it does running at highway speeds. As far as I can tell, that seems to be true.
Meanwhile, a water cooled bike has all sorts of additional avenues for catastrophic failure.
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Sure, & my old bug motor was much simpler than my Rav4 motor.
The bug motor is usually done before 100k.
I change the sparkplugs in my Rav at 110k.
I've owned both types in the same class roughly.
Sure I liked the stark simplicity of the S200, but I kept the HD200 instead. More power, better MPG with minimal additional maintenance.
In real world usage, over 6k on both bikes (a lot over 6k on HDs)..
Only big problem I've had with the HD (Knock on wood) was a fuel system issue. Both bikes have roughly the same fuel system so that was on SYM's execution in that regard than air vs. water.
Only notable issue with the S was the PAIR pipe broke. Both bikes use a similar system there too so no real point either way.
I ain't judg'n those who like the air cooled bikes. I get it. I like 'em too, but push comes to shove I prefer the more modern bike.
Might be selling short VW longevity. Last one I used for a trade in had 185,000 miles on it and was still a great running family car.
Like many aircooled....keep valves and timing in spec and freq. oil changes.
Stig
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Last review which I read of the 171cc SYM HD200 said it was water cooled.
Stig
I'll double check and come back - could have sworn we have it air cooled in the UK.
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I'll double check and come back - could have sworn we have it air cooled in the UK.
I'm no expert on this scoot - or much of anything else for that matter. Just quoting from justgottascoot.com review.
Stig
(so, what the heck are, "bubble and squeak" & "bangers and mash" ??)
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In my opinion air cooled bikes are best reserved for those of us that do all the maintenance ourselves, and if properly cared for will be reliable for years. Simpler, lighter, easier to work on, cheaper, and much more visually appealing, they have an authenticity that sparks the imagination of those who still remember the days of setting points and adjusting carbs. Having said that, my Like 200i is the only air cooled bike I got left, the others are all LC.
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Might be selling short VW longevity. Last one I used for a trade in had 185,000 miles on it and was still a great running family car.
Like many aircooled....keep valves and timing in spec and freq. oil changes.
Stig
Truth.
I have three with over 200k on the motors.
Even in the event of a rebuild it can be done on the cheap by almost anyone with a little wrenching skills.
AMAC
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I'm no expert on this scoot - or much of anything else for that matter. Just quoting from justgottascoot.com review.
Stig
(so, what the heck are, "bubble and squeak" & "bangers and mash" ??)
Yeah, the Jet 14 (looks like a PCX) and the HD200 (ST200) are both 169cc air cooled motors.
Bubble and squeak is essentially the leftovers from a roast dinner in batter.
Bangers and mash is sausages with mashed potato and gravy. Yum.
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The HD200 is water-cooled. I own two of 'em. Had to clean the cooling system on both. The OEM coolant is pretty sleezy so if ya don't purge it when the bike's new you get a lot of scale.
Ceramic coated piston and a four valve head too.
Far as air-cooled longevity goes I'm not referring to the exceptions I'm referring to Joe Average. for lifespan without not able (if simple) rebuild work.
Their longevity depends on where you used them, & how you maintain them.
In town stop & go in hot environments were a bit tough. This is true of water cooled as well but they do take rough use better.
Keeping the windshield clear in cold environments is tough too. The water cooled engines do great in that regard for the most part (Yugo's/Fiat 128s...notsomuch)
I worshiped my old bug motor and drove delivery in the Twin Cities with it. Took a lot of love and a lot of valve sets vs. the Datsun 210 that replaced it
The Datsun & later Corrollas (RWD old ones) took the beating better with less maintenance & delivered better MPG with cleaner emissions.
All that said I still love air myself, & would love to have a 71 bus with vanagon brakes, but those are a bit thin on the ground these days, & getting a mite pricey for nice ones in addition to my lack of space for said since I would not use it as a daily driver..
Far as scoots. I did use an air-cooled scoot as a daily ride. The HD just plain did a better job at it. To bring it up the scale compare a water cooled bike like the NT700 to a Harley 883. The Harley has some charisma IMHO, but in terms of the motors it's unfair to the Harley. Heck my 638cc burger, inefficient transmission and all womps the 883s & the 1200s
All that said to each their own so ride whatcha like. If I had my way and space I'd be rivaling Leno & ride what suited the mood.
Yeah, the Jet 14 (looks like a PCX) and the HD200 (ST200) are both 169cc air cooled motors.
Bubble and squeak is essentially the leftovers from a roast dinner in batter.
Bangers and mash is sausages with mashed potato and gravy. Yum.
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The HD200 is water-cooled. I own two of 'em.
Interesting - you definitely have a different HD200 over stateside then! As ours are definitely air cooled.
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The ST & the HD appear to mostly share a chassis, but that's about it.
The HD, which is no longer available in the U.S. either, also has an external fuel filler, something I appreciate.
The motor in the ST looks, by spec, to be the same one used in the Lance scooters in the U.S.
Not a terrible motor but notably less power than the HD, & a bit less than the People S, also not available in the U.S.
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The ST & the HD appear to mostly share a chassis, but that's about it.
The HD, which is no longer available in the U.S. either, also has an external fuel filler, something I appreciate.
The motor in the ST looks, by spec, to be the same one used in the Lance scooters in the U.S.
Not a terrible motor but notably less power than the HD, & a bit less than the People S, also not available in the U.S.
Having owned all three motors here’s what I’ve found.
The 171 in the HD is the best under 200cc scoot motor ever, period.
The 163 SYM/Lance is a quicker motor than then 161 in the S.
My s200 topped out at 54.
My cali Classic 200 at 67.
The HD at 75.
All gps.
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The ST200 is not the Kymco S200.
Basically it looks to be a SYM HD frame with slightly different bodywork and an air-cooled motor that looks to spec the same as the "200" used for the Lance bikes here.
So should be a bit poppier than the S200 but slower than the HD.
I'm not seeing the HD200 anywhere so my suspicion is it's a Euro4 victim.
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Thanks for clearing that up, Tromper - I was way off the mark.