KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Budz on October 26, 2014, 10:36:39 AM
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interesting video, the new Kawasaki J300 is really a Kymco Downtown 300. The presenter says (turn on subtitles in youtube) the "engine" is made by Kymco but the dash/instruments, mirrors, exhaust etc. look very much like the Downtown.
Seems like Kymco scooters are becoming the high end scooter (see the xciting 400 very nice quality) and not just a supplier of parts to BMW, Honda, Kawasaki etc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YE0m1Y3nLA&index=43&list=PL4vBfZ2xggh5k4Q5ZZfLCZrFFielT8UTH (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YE0m1Y3nLA&index=43&list=PL4vBfZ2xggh5k4Q5ZZfLCZrFFielT8UTH)
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Not exactly news, this has been general knowledge since before the J300 launch.
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Not exactly news, this has been general knowledge since before the J300 launch.
it seems I am behind the pack...
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Then I must be behind you BudZ... What's a Kymco? ::)
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What are these scooter things everyone keeps talking about?
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Must be some new fangled contraption to replace my old reliable horse.
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The horse will never be replaced.
What gets me tho is those damn Pony riders. They block traffic, and generally carry no pedigree papers.
I say kill them on site.
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Scooting...isn't that what my cat does with her butt on the carpet sometimes?
I don't see how that needs an engine or how it's going to help anybody in any way.
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It will be better for people that Kawasaki will be marketing basically the same scooter since they have such a large dealer network, a thousand times larger than Kymco in the US.
Here's the latest Kymco scooter being marketed in the US:
[url=http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=Cojok5UpOVMX6FsGApgPxrIGwBsDqisYFyJXwjKABqdz7m9QBCAQQAygFUOKXrPkGYMmu8YmYpPASoAGYyIbYA8gBB6oEI0_QiWkNamNdUdzFNXWvALBJyOLXYyOqE508InVx39XwCHhWwAUFoAYmgAfQt_knkAcBqAemvhvgEriOyMaC69_M9QE&sig=AOD64_2VJ6ryVZZGA3KFWWPmdDN3XbeGaQ&ctype=5&rct=j&q=&ved=0CC0Qww8&adurl=http://walmart.com/ip/10929205%3Fwmlspartner%3Dwlpa%26selectedItemId%3D10929204%26adid%3D22222222227000036601%26wl0%3D%26wl1%3Dg%26wl2%3Dc%26wl3%3D42968030072%26wl4%3D%26wl5%3Dpla%26wl6%3D56966966825%26veh%3Dsem]http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=Cojok5UpOVMX6FsGApgPxrIGwBsDqisYFyJXwjKABqdz7m9QBCAQQAygFUOKXrPkGYMmu8YmYpPASoAGYyIbYA8gBB6oEI0_QiWkNamNdUdzFNXWvALBJyOLXYyOqE508InVx39XwCHhWwAUFoAYmgAfQt_knkAcBqAemvhvgEriOyMaC69_M9QE&sig=AOD64_2VJ6ryVZZGA3KFWWPmdDN3XbeGaQ&ctype=5&rct=j&q=&ved=0CC0Qww8&adurl=http://walmart.com/ip/10929205%3Fwmlspartner%3Dwlpa%26selectedItemId%3D10929204%26adid%3D22222222227000036601%26wl0%3D%26wl1%3Dg%26wl2%3Dc%26wl3%3D42968030072%26wl4%3D%26wl5%3Dpla%26wl6%3D56966966825%26veh%3Dsem (http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=Cojok5UpOVMX6FsGApgPxrIGwBsDqisYFyJXwjKABqdz7m9QBCAQQAygFUOKXrPkGYMmu8YmYpPASoAGYyIbYA8gBB6oEI0_QiWkNamNdUdzFNXWvALBJyOLXYyOqE508InVx39XwCHhWwAUFoAYmgAfQt_knkAcBqAemvhvgEriOyMaC69_M9QE&sig=AOD64_2VJ6ryVZZGA3KFWWPmdDN3XbeGaQ&ctype=5&rct=j&q=&ved=0CC0Qww8&adurl=http://walmart.com/ip/10929205%3Fwmlspartner%3Dwlpa%26selectedItemId%3D10929204%26adid%3D22222222227000036601%26wl0%3D%26wl1%3Dg%26wl2%3Dc%26wl3%3D42968030072%26wl4%3D%26wl5%3Dpla%26wl6%3D56966966825%26veh%3Dsem)[/url]
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=33931426&cp=2255956.2273442.2255961.2256576.2256635&parentPage=family (http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=33931426&cp=2255956.2273442.2255961.2256576.2256635&parentPage=family)
Sam:)
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But, the fact that they are making and marketing working 'toys' means that there is a growing market and acceptance of scooters here in the States, which I see as a good thing.
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Scroll down to "related products" in that add. It's a helmet!
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It will be better for people that Kawasaki will be marketing basically the same scooter since they have such a large dealer network, a thousand times larger than Kymco in the US.
Here's the latest Kymco scooter being marketed in the US:
[url=http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=Cojok5UpOVMX6FsGApgPxrIGwBsDqisYFyJXwjKABqdz7m9QBCAQQAygFUOKXrPkGYMmu8YmYpPASoAGYyIbYA8gBB6oEI0_QiWkNamNdUdzFNXWvALBJyOLXYyOqE508InVx39XwCHhWwAUFoAYmgAfQt_knkAcBqAemvhvgEriOyMaC69_M9QE&sig=AOD64_2VJ6ryVZZGA3KFWWPmdDN3XbeGaQ&ctype=5&rct=j&q=&ved=0CC0Qww8&adurl=http://walmart.com/ip/10929205%3Fwmlspartner%3Dwlpa%26selectedItemId%3D10929204%26adid%3D22222222227000036601%26wl0%3D%26wl1%3Dg%26wl2%3Dc%26wl3%3D42968030072%26wl4%3D%26wl5%3Dpla%26wl6%3D56966966825%26veh%3Dsem]http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=Cojok5UpOVMX6FsGApgPxrIGwBsDqisYFyJXwjKABqdz7m9QBCAQQAygFUOKXrPkGYMmu8YmYpPASoAGYyIbYA8gBB6oEI0_QiWkNamNdUdzFNXWvALBJyOLXYyOqE508InVx39XwCHhWwAUFoAYmgAfQt_knkAcBqAemvhvgEriOyMaC69_M9QE&sig=AOD64_2VJ6ryVZZGA3KFWWPmdDN3XbeGaQ&ctype=5&rct=j&q=&ved=0CC0Qww8&adurl=http://walmart.com/ip/10929205%3Fwmlspartner%3Dwlpa%26selectedItemId%3D10929204%26adid%3D22222222227000036601%26wl0%3D%26wl1%3Dg%26wl2%3Dc%26wl3%3D42968030072%26wl4%3D%26wl5%3Dpla%26wl6%3D56966966825%26veh%3Dsem (http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=Cojok5UpOVMX6FsGApgPxrIGwBsDqisYFyJXwjKABqdz7m9QBCAQQAygFUOKXrPkGYMmu8YmYpPASoAGYyIbYA8gBB6oEI0_QiWkNamNdUdzFNXWvALBJyOLXYyOqE508InVx39XwCHhWwAUFoAYmgAfQt_knkAcBqAemvhvgEriOyMaC69_M9QE&sig=AOD64_2VJ6ryVZZGA3KFWWPmdDN3XbeGaQ&ctype=5&rct=j&q=&ved=0CC0Qww8&adurl=http://walmart.com/ip/10929205%3Fwmlspartner%3Dwlpa%26selectedItemId%3D10929204%26adid%3D22222222227000036601%26wl0%3D%26wl1%3Dg%26wl2%3Dc%26wl3%3D42968030072%26wl4%3D%26wl5%3Dpla%26wl6%3D56966966825%26veh%3Dsem)[/url]
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=33931426&cp=2255956.2273442.2255961.2256576.2256635&parentPage=family (http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=33931426&cp=2255956.2273442.2255961.2256576.2256635&parentPage=family)
Sam:)
Yep same dealer network full of cycle techs that haven't seen a scooter in years. Yeah that's what I'm looking for. ;D
Be Big,
AMAC
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Kymco dealers: We’re right at 600 dealers right now, and we probably need to be right around 1,000-1,100 dealers to compare us to any of the other major OEs,†Bruce Ramsey, vice president of sales and operations told Powersport's Business at KYMCO’s off-road media intro in Charlotte, N.C.
Kawasaki dealers:http://www.kawasaki.com/About/History
If you can market and service thousands of Kawasaki motorcycles a year then working on a scooter should be child's play---and it is:)
Sam:)
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I think that's where the problem lies. MC mechanics tend to over think these simple machines, and never really grasp the very few basic needs these "scoots" have.
They run on Non adjustable belts that must be EXACTLY right. 1mm makes a huge difference.
Rollers control the engine. Not the other way around.
1/8th of a turn in either direction on a carb adjustment means run/no run.
Very simple concept that are overlooked.
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I think that's where the problem lies. MC mechanics tend to over think these simple machines, and never really grasp the very few basic needs these "scoots" have.
They run on Non adjustable belts that must be EXACTLY right. 1mm makes a huge difference.
Rollers control the engine. Not the other way around.
1/8th of a turn in either direction on a carb adjustment means run/no run.
Very simple concept that are overlooked.
You're absolutely right. I think that another thing that comes into play is the disdain that most motorcycle mechanics have for the scooter. At our local bike shop (a Yamaha dealer), they refuse to work on any scooter that isn't Yamaha, and the mechanics are pretty clueless on top of that. I went in one time and asked a question about a variator, and the mechanic looked at me and said "what's a variator?" The sad part is, they also work on snow mobiles there, so for him to not know what a variator is, is laughable. After I explained to him what it was he said "Oh, that's what that's called?" and then told me that they don't do that kind of work there (wanted to change the rollers and didn't have the tools myself to do it).
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It's the margin of error that scares them off. Scooters are always broken/not running right.
Their "guy" can spend Days on a 15 minute choke issue, and replace every part he can get his hands on. There is no money in it for them so they don't bother learning.
In a town w/ 50-80 scooters I make my house payment on 20.00 per hour fixing scoots in my shed on weekends, and "slack" time.
If a dealer had ONE trained scooter tech at 85.00 an hour he would pay the salaries for 4-5 guys himself.
Big pictures intimidate small minded people.
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You're absolutely right. I think that another thing that comes into play is the disdain that most motorcycle mechanics have for the scooter. At our local bike shop (a Yamaha dealer), they refuse to work on any scooter that isn't Yamaha, and the mechanics are pretty clueless on top of that. I went in one time and asked a question about a variator, and the mechanic looked at me and said "what's a variator?" The sad part is, they also work on snow mobiles there, so for him to not know what a variator is, is laughable. After I explained to him what it was he said "Oh, that's what that's called?" and then told me that they don't do that kind of work there (wanted to change the rollers and didn't have the tools myself to do it).
Folks will argue with me but the cycle dealer sees the scoot as the step child.
I got excellent service on my Goldwing yet the same dealer had "issues" when working on my Honda scoots. They admitted to me that the techs hate working on them and added that if they see three or four a year it's a lot. I also had a horrible experience with a dealer in Indiana while on a road trip. Couldn't find/fix a variator problem on the silverwing.
Just for sh**s a giggles I stopped by a few Honda and Suzuki dealers over the summer looking at scoots but seeming "undecided" on if I should get a scoot or a cycle. Not a one tried to sell me on the scooter. Zero, nanda one. They pointed me at small cycles. All four of them.
I prefer to walk in and talk to people that know me and know scooters not cycles.
Get ready here come the Honda guys to tell otherwise. Ever wonder why they spend so much time here as opposed to the Honda sites? Confuses the hell out of me.
I get it in some places there is no other choice so it's Japan's market. Must suck.....
Be Big,
AMAC
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No argument here!
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I think the service guys hate to have to take off all of the fragile Tupperware when major service is due, even though they get paid to do so. I hate it myself and I have a real, 7ft tall, hydraulic lift that makes servicing things easy. CVT's are still foreign to most people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission)
These CVT's are in many modern autos now and are very problematic and unreliable and difficult for mechanics that are used to manual and 'normal' torque convertor type automatics.
These cycle and scooter mfg's design things so maintenance and repairs are almost impossible or very difficult for the owner:
Replacing the air filter on my 2012 Goldwing is time consuming and difficult, normally taking 3+ hours to do if you have done it before--the first time may be an all day task.
My Harley's air filters could be changed by a blind man in 10 minutes including break time.
Why do they hide spark plugs now? Why do they make valve adjustments so difficult: Screw and locknut, shim under bucket, shim over bucket, buckets that must be replaced in different sizes and then there is the Desmo that most folks have no idea about.
My first new Goldwing, a 1997 Aspencade had hydraulic lifters!!!! My new 1800 has adjustable lifters (34,000 mile intervals) but my Harleys were all hydraulic, plugs in the open as well as the air filter and oil filter!
Some of these scooters basically have to be stripped bare to do valve adjustments for instance and some must have the dual overhead cams removed to make adjustments. No wonder people don't want to work on them. The Vespa has to have the entire engine/ rear swingarm assembly detached and let down to do the valves. Stupid!
Sorry for the rant.
Sam:)
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I think the service guys hate to have to take off all of the fragile Tupperware when major service is due, even though they get paid to do so. I hate it myself and I have a real, 7ft tall, hydraulic lift that makes servicing things easy. CVT's are still foreign to most people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission)
These CVT's are in many modern autos now and are very problematic and unreliable and difficult for mechanics that are used to manual and 'normal' torque convertor type automatics.
These cycle and scooter mfg's design things so maintenance and repairs are almost impossible or very difficult for the owner:
Replacing the air filter on my 2012 Goldwing is time consuming and difficult, normally taking 3+ hours to do if you have done it before--the first time may be an all day task.
My Harley's air filters could be changed by a blind man in 10 minutes including break time.
Why do they hide spark plugs now? Why do they make valve adjustments so difficult: Screw and locknut, shim under bucket, shim over bucket, buckets that must be replaced in different sizes and then there is the Desmo that most folks have no idea about.
My first new Goldwing, a 1997 Aspencade had hydraulic lifters!!!! My new 1800 has adjustable lifters (34,000 mile intervals) but my Harleys were all hydraulic, plugs in the open as well as the air filter and oil filter!
Some of these scooters basically have to be stripped bare to do valve adjustments for instance and some must have the dual overhead cams removed to make adjustments. No wonder people don't want to work on them. The Vespa has to have the entire engine/ rear swingarm assembly detached and let down to do the valves. Stupid!
Sorry for the rant.
Sam:)
I'm right with you my friend !
More naked scooters
Be Big,
AMAC
and more naked scooter girls. (I'm a pig by nature) ;D
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So if the Kawa scoot is a Kymco does that mean that mean that Kawa dealers/service centers will come to a grinding halt when they have to service these things because they have to wait months for parts from Kymco? This is my biggest bitch about Kymco. I got my People and learned the hard way that it will rattle apart. I lost three or four bolts and a panel to normal operation (now thats quality right?) and have been waiting over two months for simple bolts, washers, and panels. If they dick Kawa around like that it will give Kawasaki a bad name.
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So if the Kawa scoot is a Kymco does that mean that mean that Kawa dealers/service centers will come to a grinding halt when they have to service these things because they have to wait months for parts from Kymco? This is my biggest bitch about Kymco. I got my People and learned the hard way that it will rattle apart. I lost three or four bolts and a panel to normal operation (now thats quality right?) and have been waiting over two months for simple bolts, washers, and panels. If they dick Kawa around like that it will give Kawasaki a bad name.
That sir is a problem with whoever you ordered parts from, not Kymco. I order parts direct from Kymco daily, they are always 5-10 days out and faster if you pay 2 day UPS.
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That sir is a problem with whoever you ordered parts from, not Kymco. I order parts direct from Kymco daily, they are always 5-10 days out and faster if you pay 2 day UPS.
I've never had a parts issue either.
Sounds like a dealer problem, the scoot shouldn't rattle apart if it was PDI correctly. Loose not or screw here and there sure but not parts flying off.
I hope it works out for you, all the best.
Be Big,
AMAC
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BTW it has been reported that the J300 carries a registartion plate that says:
Kwang Yang Motor Co, Ltd
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Naked... 60mph
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Naked... 60mph
^^^^^^^ best reply ever haha
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If you can market and service thousands of Kawasaki motorcycles a year then working on a scooter should be child's play---and it is
n't!
The scooters small frame and overlapping fairings lead to unique access difficulties.
Example: A spark plug change on a Vespa LX50 4T 4V needs not only some fairings removed, but also releasing of the engine mounting!
Similar with bulb / rear tire change, valve adjustment, ...
You can service one 50cc scooter or two decent motorycles in the same time.
Try to explain to your customer, why the service bill for the kawa/yammi/beemer/... is 120€ every 10000km and for the little scooter 200€ every 5000km.
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Zombie, I don't like to ride NEKED especially at 60 mph as the-ah-Guy's get very cold---well, maybe not in Florida:)
Sam:)
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I don't know what to say...
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You're absolutely right. I think that another thing that comes into play is the disdain that most motorcycle mechanics have for the scooter. At our local bike shop (a Yamaha dealer), they refuse to work on any scooter that isn't Yamaha, and the mechanics are pretty clueless on top of that. I went in one time and asked a question about a variator, and the mechanic looked at me and said "what's a variator?" The sad part is, they also work on snow mobiles there, so for him to not know what a variator is, is laughable. After I explained to him what it was he said "Oh, that's what that's called?" and then told me that they don't do that kind of work there (wanted to change the rollers and didn't have the tools myself to do it).
That's pretty darn sad.
We don't have Snowmobiles here in southern Nevada, but don't some of the older ATV's use a variator for their drive systems? Don't those same dealerships sell ATV?
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Golf carts use CVT's as well.
IMHO the fact of the matter is MOST mechanics are grease monkeys. Some do a few things well some are GREAT al all sorts of things, and others just do it because they can not do anything at all.
I've said this a thousand times... I've been a mechanic of one sort or another for most of my life, and I can count the really great mechanics I have met on one hand. It's an aptitude that goes way beyond classes or school room learning. A great mechanic can see what is happening and why before he even see's the machine.
You don't come across these people every day, and dealerships are no where near having enough of these guys. Actually dealerships generally get the monkeys that mess up an oil change, or the guy that can recite every part number from a 1979 Honda GoldWing but be completely lost under the plastics of a scooter.
Just my opinions
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A great mechanic can see what is happening and why before he even see's the machine.
I took a bachelor 2 yr program at Portland CC and learned a lot about engines and different systems in cars, but I have learned MUCH MUCH more in the 5 years I've worked on scooters at the shop. Nothing beats real world experience. It's funny because another shop in town has "the only certified Vespa mechanic in Portland" and I see SOOOOOOOOO many screw ups' that are just plain stupid.
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Like I said... The class room does nothing for a mechanic. It's sort of like that SuperMan thing where you can see thru things. You have to know what is doing what, and be able to see it working in your mind. No need to tear an entire bike apart if you know where to look for the problem.
Parts Changers are another conversation completely. They make me furious.
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I was watching a pretty cool documentary where they were talking about how Nicola Tesla, a personal hero of mine, could completely visualize his inventions even up to the point of being able to do R&D in his mind switching stuff around and trying different configurations of coils etc. It's a tragedy he was not recognized for what he did until now, amazing person.
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Guess who made everything we do today possible? TV Radio Cell Phones ect... Hedy Lemar! The FIRST Nude
Femme fatale
http://www.women-inventors.com/Hedy-Lammar.asp (http://www.women-inventors.com/Hedy-Lammar.asp)
She may also be the ONLY reason we won WWII. She developed the Tech that ran EVERYTHING!
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WOW that's one badass chick!!!! I have indeed heard of that code before, but never read too much about her.
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It amazed me when I learned about her, and her life.
I thought broads were only good for fetching my beer. Who knew??
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Yeah no kidding...... And sandwiches
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MMmmmmm! Easy on the ketsup
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It amazed me when I learned about her, and her life.
I thought broads were only good for fetching my beer. Who knew??
Yeah no kidding...... And sandwiches
I'm gonna have to come hurt you guys, you know . ;)
I have been medically trained to knowhowto do so . ;D
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I sincerely hope that's a promise. I'll have the cold cuts, and beer ready.
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Are you sure that wasn't HEDLEY LAMARR??????
Wil B.
Broadview, IL
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Pretty sure!
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Pretty sure!
I knew that was coming......
Be Big,
AMAC
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Had to think for a moment, and that really hurt.
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Had to think for a moment, and that really hurt.
ya I seen the smoke on the horizon,
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WHAT?
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Back to the show.
Here's the two scoots and other than cosmetics the "J" is a downtown with ABS.
Same seating that has been panned as "tight". Same everything except label.
(http://scooter-gimp.smugmug.com/MISC/i-pjC5r8Q/0/L/image-L.jpg)
Can't see a good reason to buy a "house label" kawasaki when the real one is available.
Be Big,
AMAC
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Nicer lines on the Kawi!
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Besides the cosmetics there are subtle changes to the engine and CVT in the Kawasaki.
Availability of a decent local dealer could be one reason to choose the J300 over the Downtown.
Depreciation could be another.
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WHAT?
Nice selfie , Z !
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Besides the cosmetics there are subtle changes to the engine and CVT in the Kawasaki.
Availability of a decent local dealer could be one reason to choose the J300 over the Downtown.
Depreciation could be another.
Odds are that dealers techs haven't seen a scooter in a while. That dealer is also in the business of selling cycles and they always come first. I'll wait to see the subtle changes. The fact that they would rebrand an entire scooter shows little commitment to the scooter market.
Depreciation. I bought a 2013 DT300 new OTD for under 3k and could repeat the process again and again. I start ahead of the depreciation curve.
If you look at the world thru "green eyes" than you see the "J" as something different, when in fact its a 4 year old design the day they roll it out.
Team Green took a short cut.
Be Big,
AMAC
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Nicer lines on the Kawi!
Yes.
Not 2500.00 worth.
Be Big,
AMAC
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Nice selfie , Z !
Thanks but it's actually a self portrait. I learned how to do that by watching PBS! Bob Ross Rocked!
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Something you said hit me... If a customer brings me a weed wacker for repair, it will be MUCH lower on the list of things to do.
I repair boats. Weed wackers are a "cigarette/hippie grass" side line.
Now I really get it!
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I have read somewhere Kawa changed the ECU on the J300 as well. Wonder what did they alter?! Why was a new/different ECU needed? Any ideas?
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Most likely a more aggressive Ign. timing curve, and a re-mapping of the injection. My guess is more throttle response, and perhaps a few more HP over the Kymco set up.
Just guessing here...
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Thanks but it's actually a self portrait. I learned how to do that by watching PBS! Bob Ross Rocked!
The bird you messed up...now, it's a tree -----B.Ross
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LOL LOL!
I actually did get into painting in his style, and used to teach the kids in the neighborhood how easy it was.
My daughter had a few friends over, and we started a painting where each of us could add something new to it or modify what the person before them did.
Brittney painted in a beautiful field of grass. The next kid (Tara) was jealous, and said... Now it's a lake!
I laughed my ASS off. Thanks for the memory Sis! That's one of the really great ones. Even my squirrel is happy.
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LOL LOL!
I actually did get into painting in his style, and used to teach the kids in the neighborhood how easy it was.
My daughter had a few friends over, and we started a painting where each of us could add something new to it or modify what the person before them did.
Brittney painted in a beautiful field of grass. The next kid (Tara) was jealous, and said... Now it's a lake!
I laughed my ASS off. Thanks for the memory Sis! That's one of the really great ones. Even my squirrel is happy.
;D ;D ;D
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Most likely a more aggressive Ign. timing curve, and a re-mapping of the injection. My guess is more throttle response, and perhaps a few more HP over the Kymco set up.
Just guessing here...
Kawasaki has more torque, slightly less peak power, better midrange.
Feels sportier apparently.
UK prices:
Kawasaki J300 ABS £4399
Kymco Downtown ABS £4199
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Kawasaki has more torque, slightly less peak power, better midrange.
Feels sportier apparently.
UK prices:
Kawasaki J300 ABS £4399
Kymco Downtown ABS £4199
Specs please to support your claim.
Remember the Kawasaki is not competing against the DT, it's competing against the Forza.
The Forzas is far more advanced design, although a bit slower than the DT.
So Kawasaki takes a old rehash to the sales race against the Forza. I'll bet on the Honda
No commitment at all.
Be Big,
AMAC
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Well according to the review I just read the Kawi has like 3 ABS options. Seems like Kawi is at least trying harder to give consumers options they would want. It is beyond me why Kymco decided for us that we don't want the option. Hell one of the options links the front and rear brakes like I see Honda doing.
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Something to consider... I might start a new thread on this.
Most of the cheap China made scooters have a module the attaches in line on the front brake. It is a cylinder w/ a reservoir that is rider adjustable. In essence it is an anti lock brake, It can be retrofitted to any bike, and adjusted as per the riders needs.
something to consider...
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Those Chinese things only cut down how much pressure goes to the caliper. Dangerous in my opinion.
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That's the way I see ABS.. Dangerous.
You are 100% correct. They do cut the pressure applied, and thereby (if adjusted correctly) they do prevent the front/rear wheel from locking. In ice/snow/sand/rain the tire can still lose traction, and slip but that is no different from ABS reducing pressure to a "0" brake effect.
I was just throwing the idea out there...
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That's the way I see ABS.. Dangerous.
You are 100% correct. They do cut the pressure applied, and thereby (if adjusted correctly) they do prevent the front/rear wheel from locking. In ice/snow/sand/rain the tire can still lose traction, and slip but that is no different from ABS reducing pressure to a "0" brake effect.
I was just throwing the idea out there...
Oh I'm totally with you on that aspect tho.
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Well according to the review I just read the Kawi has like 3 ABS options
Nope, there is a single type of ABS offered, front and rear brakes are independent and not linked.
Its probably the same Bosch kit fitted to the Downtown.
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Ok those units are just on cheapo chinese scoots and arent true abs. Didnt anyone read Stig's post? I dont get people that are against this. They always spout off things that arent true. But by all means do without. While youre at it take it out of your car and take them pesky airbags out they only make things heavier and more expensive. If you drive good you dont need them...... unless there is an accident.... Oh wait.
BTW
I was not wrong.
"Sudden over-application of the brakes, or braking on low-grip surfaces (surfaces with a low coefficient of friction) such as wet asphalt or manhole covers may cause a motorcycle’s wheel(s) to lock up and slip. ABS was developed to prevent such incidents. Kawasaki ABS systems are controlled by high precision and highly reliable programming formulated based on thorough testing of numerous riding situations. By ensuring stable braking performance, they offer rider reassurance that contributes to greater riding enjoyment.
And to meet the special requirements of certain riders, specialised ABS systems are also available. For example, KIBS (Kawasaki Intelligent anti-lock Brake System) is a high-precision brake system designed specifically for supersport models, enabling sport riding to be enjoyed by a wider range of riders. And by linking the front and rear brakes, K-ACT (Kawasaki Advanced Coactive-braking Technology) ABS provides the confidence to enjoy touring on heavyweight models. Kawasaki is continually working on the development of other advanced ABS systems" -Top Speed .com
Directly from the J300 review
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Some of us will never like ABS no matter how much anyone tells us. Just the way it is, not saying it's inherently bad, just don't like it. Don't like it on cars or bikes. It'd be a sad day in America, land of the "free" if it was mandatory on bikes and scoots.
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Some of us will never like ABS no matter how much anyone tells us. Just the way it is, not saying it's inherently bad, just don't like it. Don't like it on cars or bikes. It'd be a sad day in America, land of the "free" if it was mandatory on bikes and scoots.
I understand. I don't think anyone that does not want it should be forced to have it. I just can't see why people who do want it don't get the option unless they live in certain places. Also I feel the way you do about ABS, about airbags, convoluted dash computers, power windows, power tailgates, and much more. I grew up without those things and am still alive to talk about it. I don't get a choice now a days. It seems every year they cram more and more junk into their cars just to keep charging more. I don't need power windows, I have a hand that can turn a window crank. I don't need power tail gates I can move my arm up and down. I wouldn't have "totaled" my Firebird if the airbags hadn't deployed when I hit that curb. I was happy with the simple things. I don't need a back up camera because I am not so irresponsible that I would buy something I couldn't drive. However I do want ABS on my scoot. I have had too many soccer mom's in their GMC HugeSonOfaBitch nearly kill me because they can't be bothered to pay attention. I have gotten lots of practice braking in emergency situations and it is scary when you have less than three seconds to get on those brakes and you're instinct is to mash on those levers. It is even worse when it happens and you are on a painted part of the road or it is wet. Stig posted an article a bit ago and i've read another one similar to it. In practice humans can't brake better than a well made ABS. Computers just think quicker and don't get adrenaline rushes. Kawi has actually got my attention with this scooter. From where I sit it looks like Kawasaki is beating Kymco with their own scooter. If I were in the market for a Downtown the J300 would steal my business away from Kymco.
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Max... You just argued both sides of the discussion.
ABS is great for main stream America. It is even better for newbie riders/drivers. It is a royal PITA for experienced riders that expect a certain reaction from their machine that never happens.
Sometimes you NEED that slide or loss of traction to change the outcome of a situation.
I only posted up the bladder deal as a matter of discussion. They actually do work to prevent tire lock up, and can be retro fitted to ANY bike of ANY size, and on either wheel. I have 4-5 of them in my shop that I have taken off of various bikes due to the riders requests. If anyone wants a pair to experiment w/. I'd be happy to post them out.
To some ABS is a must. to others... not so much.
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Ha sometimes I argue with myself too. Some of my posts should be followed by a BAC tag.
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BTW
I was not wrong.
"Sudden over-application of the brakes, or braking on low-grip surfaces (surfaces with a low coefficient of friction) such as wet asphalt or manhole covers may cause a motorcycle’s wheel(s) to lock up and slip. ABS was developed to prevent such incidents. Kawasaki ABS systems are controlled by high precision and highly reliable programming formulated based on thorough testing of numerous riding situations. By ensuring stable braking performance, they offer rider reassurance that contributes to greater riding enjoyment.
And to meet the special requirements of certain riders, specialised ABS systems are also available. For example, KIBS (Kawasaki Intelligent anti-lock Brake System) is a high-precision brake system designed specifically for supersport models, enabling sport riding to be enjoyed by a wider range of riders. And by linking the front and rear brakes, K-ACT (Kawasaki Advanced Coactive-braking Technology) ABS provides the confidence to enjoy touring on heavyweight models. Kawasaki is continually working on the development of other advanced ABS systems" -Top Speed .com
Directly from the J300 review
If you mean this revew (http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/kawasaki/2014-kawasaki-j300-ar163660.html) you have misinterpreted it.
The paragraph you quote is a generalised explanation of ABS, it is not a description of what is optional on the J300.
If you look further up the review under the title "ABS Available" you will see that "ABS control comes care of a lightweight Bosch unit."
ABS should be mandatory on all road vehicles.
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ABS should be mandatory on all road vehicles.
Give me one reason skilled riders should suffer at the expense of novices? I would never want to be forced to but a bike with more expensive features that hinder the way the bike responds to my gentle touch!
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If you mean this revew (http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/kawasaki/2014-kawasaki-j300-ar163660.html) you have misinterpreted it.
The paragraph you quote is a generalised explanation of ABS, it is not a description of what is optional on the J300.
If you look further up the review under the title "ABS Available" you will see that "ABS control comes care of a lightweight Bosch unit."
ABS should be mandatory on all road vehicles.
and maybe non-slip bath matts should also be mandatory......
and maybe removal of all auto electronics, radio etal, should be mandatory.......
and maybe a ban all outdoor tile floors should be mandatory .......
Choice. Please allow me to make the simple choices based on my experience and skills. I think ABS is great for those that want it. In my near 45 years on two wheels ABS would not have stopped the 2 times I met the blacktop face to face.
Unless it would have stopped a tail end smack and a red light running T-Bone.
Be Big,
AMAC
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ABS should be mandatory on all road vehicles.
Give me one reason skilled riders should suffer at the expense of novices? I would never want to be forced to but a bike with more expensive features that hinder the way the bike responds to my gentle touch!
ABS does not hinder the skilled rider nor does it make him suffer.
It might stop the skilled rider having a crash though.
At which point it more than pays for itself.
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If you research who lobbied for anti lock brakes in the US you will see it was the . National Assn/Mutual Insurance Companies,
Not the American people. Nor was it a consumer demand that triggered the installation of such devices.
While I do 100% agree that these devices DO save lives, I do not agree that everyone needs them.
Not every person is a skilled rider/driver. In fact I would venture a guess that perhaps 10% of the population (or less) are capable of riding/driving their vehicles at that vehicles limits.
MOST of the problem comes from people wanting bigger/faster. Those same people are the real issue here. Any mook w/ a hand full of $$$'s or good credit can buy a Porsche or a Ducatti. It's the majority/mooks that set the rules.
Just a simple analogy... Guns are far more deadly than bikes/cars. They are designed to be. The majority of gun owners are safe/responsible/trained in their use. Even though guns are far more deadly, they can/will never be banned in the US. Reason is the majority uses them in a safe manner. Unlike vehicles where the majority has no idea how deadly they are, and never takes the time to learn.Proof of this statement?? ??
Texting/eating/drinking/make up application/reading the paper/rolling a joint/putting in a dvd for the kids in the back/speeding/splitting lanes/wheelies... ect. You never see a fella at the gun range doing ANY thing other than safely using his gun.
I'm not arguing anything here. Just pointing out some of the behind the scenes actions that make things the way they are.
On the surface I am wrong about 80% of the time but my thoughts/opinions are based on what the underlying causes are. Same as repairing an engine. It doesn't matter that the piston seized... What matters is why. Replacing said piston is a by product of the cause, and not the task at hand. Correcting the cause is what is required to prevent an ongoing issue.
Love you guys! Thanks.
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Regarding your absurd gun culture, never say never.
Whoulda thunk black people could one day ride the front of the bus?
ABS does what it says, it stops wheels from locking and this is of benefit to the owners of vehicles and people who may be affected by vehicle collisions.
i.e. just about everyone.
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it stops wheels from locking and this is of benefit....
This to me is NOT A BENEFIT!!!! What if I want to lock the rear wheel up to slide? I am 100% onboard with having the CHOICE to get ABS on a motorcycle/scooter and for 99% of the people out there it is a very nice feature, but to me I just plain and simple DON'T WANT IT!!!!!!!!
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What if I want to lock the rear wheel up to slide?
Get a bicycle.
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Why should bicycles only be capable of skidding? I don't get why your soooo obsessed with me "needing" ABS.... One thing you might not know about abs is it actually makes your stopping distance GREATER in sick conditions, put that in your pipe and smoke it. I'm only 26 but i enjoy the old school, the less involvement a vehicle has in your driving experience, the more pure the drive or ride is. This is my opinion, and most drivers and riders are to retarded to rely on themselves instead of technology. It just bugs me your trying sooooooo hard to convince me to want it, that's just not gonna happen.
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"Whoulda thunk black people could one day ride the front of the bus?"
They needed them in the back to get more traction on dirt roads. Besides... They had all the white boys up front for "air Bags".
Simple stuff when you break it down. Cause/Effect!
What a day!!!!!