electricity problems in kymco Agility 125

[kymcoco]

Hi Karl, thanks for your reply!
Important thing in my case:  In the garage they haven't changed the regulator and it might be related to that (I hope .. ).
My case is not really the same: too high voltage is going to the battery - when I try to turn the key to turn on the key and try to start the scooter, the fuse before the battery is burned in a minute. (I press the start button, I can hear shortly the starting sound and then it becomes quiet, no more sound when pressing the button - the fuse is blown)
Now I will change the regulator and I let you know as soon as I have something new.
Regards
 

[CROSSBOLT]

Hold on there, you say when you turn the key on the fuse burns BEFORE you start the engine? That indicates you have something grounded that should not be grounded! Again, no shop is going to take the time to find this so YOU gotta do it. Start with a handful of main fuses. Disconnect everything that is hooked to the battery through the main contactor. Turn key on and if it does not blow, start hooking one at a time up the loads or plugging stuff back in. When the fuse blows you will know the cause is in the last circuit you connected. Now you might want to look first at natural friction points for chaffed insulation exposing copper or silver-colored wire. One point is at the steering head. OK, get busy!

Karl

[kymcoco]

"when I try to turn the key to start the scooter" - sorry it was not correct expression from my side.
I meant when I turn on the key and then I press the start button. I'm gonna correct it in the previous post.

[CROSSBOLT]

Try disconnecting the starter. You should hear the start relay clicking when the start button is pushed. The starter or  heavy wire to it are defective if the fuse does not blow.

Karl

[kymcoco]

Try disconnecting the starter. You should hear the start relay clicking when the start button is pushed. The starter or  heavy wire to it are defective if the fuse does not blow.

Karl, you mean it might be not caused by the regulator? Do you agree that if too high voltage/current goes to the battery, most often it's caused by broken regulator? (it's never 100% sure, but quite hight probability in this case)
Do you agree that one of roles of regulator is to descrease the incoming current/voltage below some limit (14V) ?

Thanks!
Mira

[CROSSBOLT]

You may be dealing with more than one problem. Take it one at a time: First, it sounds like you have a problem in the start circuit. By your description, something like a dead short when you push the starter button. Isolate that first and correct. The regulator IS supposed to control the output of the stator (alternator) so you don't burn bulbs or anything else. Second, your situation is at start and there is nothing to regulate and nothing is being generated! Finally, we will see what happens after you get this main fuse blowing at start fixed.

I anxiously await the next step! You ask any question anytime you are not sure and SOMEONE will have an answer!

Karl

[kymcoco]

Thank you again Karl for the clarification! At week I come late from work thus i wont be able to check it until the weekend.

Here just another indication/question:  When I was buying fuses (long time ago already) I remember I could not find out what current it should be for. When I'm checking the electric schema in Kymco pdf manual - there's marked only the 1st of 2 fuses: 15A. I don't remember any more how I had decided for 10A for the 2nd one, anyway I bought 10A fuses and that's  the one that blows in my starting.  Couldn't be 10A too low for it? The 1st one (15A) doesn't blow. 
(see the attachment please)

[CROSSBOLT]

I see the 15a so the 10a is the one going to the BRAKE switches that not only energise the starter but the brake light (s) as well. So, your problem lies in either the start solenoid and/or its wiring or (maybe and) the brake light circuit and/or its wiring. Good diagram but they left part of it out! As usual!

Good info! Gonna hold my breath until you post the next finding!

Karl
 

[kymcoco]

Thanks Karl, today I did the following tests:
1. I had disconnected starter motor from relay and pressed few times the button: 3 times the relay had clicked, then has become quiet, the fuse blown.
2. I had removed the bulb from back light (the starter still disconnected) and pressed few times the button: 3 times the relay had clicked, then has become quiet, the fuse blown. HERE I NOTICED THAT THE BACK LIGHT IS DAMAGED ON ITS  RIGHT SIDE, IT REMINDS ME THAT ONE DAY I FOUND SOME SAND ON THE SIDE OF MY SCOOTER ON AN EXTERNAL PARKING, IT SEEMED LIKE SOMEBODY PUSHED IT (BY MISTAKE WHEN BACKING WITH A CAR), THE SCOOTER FELL DOWN AND THEN THE OFFENDER PUT IT UP AND LEFT.

How I understand it: Starter is innocent, some wiring between hadlebar and back light makes short circuit (or also the relay might do it?). I cannot see any "suspicious" wire there for now..

[CROSSBOLT]

Look at your diagram. This is a "string circuit" which is simplified of what is in the machine. The 10 a fuse blows when 1. the start button AND 2. the brake lever are activated. The wires from these switches are grounded to the frame OR the start relay coil is shorted. Only two causes that exist. Test the relay coil for proper resistance first since it is easiest. Test start relay if proper ohm value is present. Test by applying +12 volts to the positive (red) terminal and -12 volts to negative (black) terminal. It should click very aggressively. Then you must test the wiring if the start coil is OK. This is a toughie since you will have to carefully inspect EVERY INCH of the wires involved. You can assist this visual with an ohmmeter hooked between the wire being inspected and ground. When the grounded part is found the ohmmeter confirms it.

Karl

[kymcoco]

I'll test the relay as soon as possible, anyway:

1) do you agree that the wire to the stop light might also cause it? As you said - it's not on the schema, but I imagine the wire like another spring going from between the break levers and the relay (ie. from the "G/Y" wire) to the stop light, and from the light back to the G/Y. And even though I removed the bulb in my last testing, if the wire is grounded somewhere BEFORE THE BULB then it could cause the short circuit as well, couldn't it?

2) what about the wire between the relay and the starter button (Y/R on the schema)? To check it as well?

Thank you!

[CROSSBOLT]

Answer to 1 & 2 is YES! You are taking off! String circuits leave stuff out to stress another point of the system.

Karl

[kymcoco]

So I've checked the relay today, and there are 2 suspicious things!
1) resistence:
When I don't send any current by the start button and I measure the resistence between 2 connectors of the relay that go to the starter: once it shows full resistence other times some lower resistence value, depends how i move with the connectors. IS IT GROUNDED, BURNT? 
2) input voltage:
When I disconnect the input connector of the relay and I measure the input voltage (when the start button and brake lever are pressed) it doesn't show full battery voltage (12.5V) but only instable values, no more than 10.5V. Not sure if it changes bcs I move with the start button, brake lever or the electric meter placed on the connector, but the value is very unstable and varies from zero to 10.5V. Is it normal that the votage varies a lot depending on the pressure on the button?

Thanks in advance Karl!

[CROSSBOLT]

Here is how the tests should run:

1. Disconnect battery ground at battery negative post.
2. Disconnect fat red wire at starter solenoid (relay).
3. Disconnect fat wire at solenoid that runs to starter.
Starter solenoid (relay) should measure infinity between the two fat posts since starter relay is not energized. Both posts should read infinity to ground. Failing either test starter relay should be replaced.

4. Disconnect both skinny wires at starter relay.
There should be SOME ohm value between these terminals on the relay.  I would guess 5 to 12 ohms. The service manual MIGHT give a value but measuring one known to be a good relay is probably the best way. If you get some continuity between these terminals go to 5.
5. Both terminals should show infinity to ground.
Failing either test starter relay should be replaced.

When you disconnected the fat red wire at the start relay there should have been a fairly heavy red wire that should have been disconnected that runs to the fuse block. Leave this wire disconnected. Take the brake bulb out. Pull both the 15 and 10 amp fuses. Test for ground at the 10 amp fuse holder when you pull either brake. Wires are grounded somewhere if you get any low ohms to ground. 5000 ohms to ground is OK. Do the same kind of test for the start switch. Tell us what you find.

Karl

[kymcoco]

BIG NEWS!

I followed your instructions:
1-5) when the relay is disconnected it doesn't show any lower resistence, only infinity => relay is OK.
So I did what remained - testing all the wires without the bulb & fuses ...  AND YES, THERE WAS AROUND 200 Ohm behind the 2nd fuse (on black wire)!  I got complete electric scheme of my Kymco and followed the suscpicious wire - disconnecting connector from both sides. Result:  fuel indicater on the dashboard - after disconnecting it the 200 Ohm disappeared!

Anyway the battle is still not won - even though now I can see 12V comming to the starter relay (before it balanced between 5 and 10), motor still doesn't start and after several attempts the fuse is blown again.

My next plan: 
1) To check (replace) the spark plug
2) And to use 15A fuse

I will keep you updated, thank you!