KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => LIKE 200i => Topic started by: cakebrake on October 08, 2018, 10:01:05 PM
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I have a 2012 200i that i bought new in 2013.
A few months ago I started noticing a little hesitation and vibration
when going from a standstill. Recently it became more drastic, where
it would kinda jump a little at low speeds.....so I stopped driving it.
I bought new rollers and belt and put them on. Its decent now, but still
doesn't seem 100%. I remember not being too impressed with the rest of
the variator and accompanying parts' condition, but wasn't too worried about it.
Can anyone else help me narrow this down?
btw, engine runs fine, and its got like 5 or 6k miles
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Sounds very much like glazed clutch pads....with dirty clutch bell.
New belt and rollers won't fix the juddering that comes when the clutch pads are glazed, sticking, juddering and acting up.
Clean the bell, lightly sand the pads to remove the glaze - reassemble and learn to be "brisk" with the throttle when taking off. Gentle throttle will slowly cause the pads to glaze from slipping - rather than quickly 'locking up' when pulling away.
Keep the pads clean by giving it the beans when pulling away from a stop.
Frankly - this cure for clutch judder seems more art than science sometimes....but if you get the pads clean and change your driving habits it should stay away for a long time.
(there is the "hold the brake and rev it !" - method of cleaning the pads - but I do not like to abuse my scooter in this manner)
Stig
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Ouuuuuu [emoji15] hold brake and gas it?!.... please explain *grabs popcorn * I’m a rebel. A little abuse can go a long way [emoji6] in moderation lol
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Ouuuuuu [emoji15] hold brake and gas it?!.... please explain *grabs popcorn * I’m a rebel. A little abuse can go a long way [emoji6] in moderation lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Means it heats the clutch shoes and drum, scrubs glazing of of both and seems to solve the juddering problem without disassembly.
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not a bad idea, but if i were to do that, i should've did it b4 I changed the belt,
now i'll probably take your advice and check the clutch specs....or just use it as is
thanks
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Tried the "hold rear brake and gas it" a few times.
It's a temporary fix, doesn't last long.
The only solution is to take the clutch bell off, sand the clutch pads good to remove the glazing, and clean the inside of the clutch bell.
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Tried the "hold rear brake and gas it" a few times.
It's a temporary fix, doesn't last long.
The only solution is to take the clutch bell off, sand the clutch pads good to remove the glazing, and clean the inside of the clutch bell.
Agreed.
Stig
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Hey folks,
here is an advise from a respected Kymco dealer and senior mechanic in Germany who regularily is in contact with Kymco:
He recommends -seriously! - after sanding and cleaning the clutch pads and bell inside, to spray the pads with WD40 Oil. Let it soak in a few minutes and then wipe off the excess oil with a peace of paper towel or similar, so that the pads themselves arent "slippery oily wet" anymore. Do NOT degrease or clean it afterwards! Also give the inside of bell a short thin wipe with these used oily papertowel.
Then reasemble the whole clutch bell belt parts in the right and correct manner.
With this method your clutch judder problems should be solved longterm and you should have a buttery smooth operating clutch.
I know that this method may sound wierd a bit for many of us, yes it does, but this mechanic and several people in the german Kymco forum have used this method and have confirmed, that this method does the trick.
I myself haven´t tested it yet and lived with the judder for almost 20.000km now. My judder issue varies depending on temperature. To cold isnt good and too hot isnt good.
I have planned to replace my whole drivetrain wear parts next year at roundabout 22.000km. Then I will either use a better aftermarket clutch or I will also use the trick with WD40 decribed above.
So, who is willing try it and report in the US?
Stig? Long boring winter days and nights are ahead of us all and your Like for sure estimates some cosy treatment from you. :) ;)
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Well Robo - if anyone but you had suggested this, I'd be suspect.
Hmm.
Fortunately I've not had an issue with a juddering clutch on 4 different scooters once I learned to be brisk on my pull aways from a stop. The Burgman 400 would misbehave the quickest if not treated right.
I suspect that because I ride so little in congested city traffic my scoots are less prone to glazed friction surfaces.
I imagine that "brisk", and 'stop & go', do not mix well.
I have a new fully assembled Kymco clutch and bell for my LIKE200I - purchased at a good price from our old member who worked in a Kymco dealer in Oregon some years ago. Still in a box. But, not sure I'll ever get to use it - the original is wearing so slowly. (same with the set of brake pads !)
WD40 on a friction surface of my scooter? ?? Well.....please let us know what you discover!
;)
Stig
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Yeah, YOU try it! Definitely I gonna wait until PROVEN by someone ELSE has tried this! I know how gummy WD-40 gets after it sits in open air. Yager 200i had some lube he put in his clutch a few years back but I just tossed that off, too!
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The clutch on my Like200 juddered like hell, I just ignored it :|
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I just sanded both pads and Bell today. Runs smooth as ever. Did have some WD 40 grease get everywhere including some surface areas. But I said screw it, and put it back together. I figured the heat and friction would eventually dissipate and oil.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I just sanded both pads and Bell today. Runs smooth as ever. Did have some WD 40 grease get everywhere including some surface areas. But I said screw it, and put it back together. I figured the heat and friction would eventually dissipate and oil.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I just sanded both pads and Bell today. Runs smooth as ever. Did have some WD 40 grease get everywhere including some surface areas. But I said screw it, and put it back together. I figured the heat and friction would eventually dissipate and oil.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
OK, then.
Stig
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Most clutch judder is because the clutch bell overheats, and not because pads get glazed, etc. These bikes were designed for 150-170 lb riders in busy stop and go traffic. Not two up, 400 pounds holding it open for miles. So if you have clutch judder it is because your riding style is harder on the clutch bell than it was designed for. The solution is a better clutch bell.
If your clutch bell is blue, replace it. It no longer evenly dissipates heat. Nothing will get it back to how it was before, and you will spend more time taking it apart when it starts juddering again, than it's worth. Unless your time is worth absolutely nothing, then keep taking it apart and scraping it out every couple of weeks when it starts juddering again. And a bell that judders breaks down the pads faster, so plan on replacing your clutch sooner too.
A very light coating of grease inside the clutch bell can get rid of a lot of noise and judder for a while. It burns off the first time you apply the clutch, but conditions the metal for a while.
Changing to a slightly heavier contra spring also helps. Also, replace the clutch springs with a good set of aftermarket springs. Not the racing ones, but ones that are close to the original. The springs work hard, and after thousands of miles, metal fatigue starts to affect them.
If you replace the bell, one of the new ones with cooling fins will help a lot. Or any top quality name brand aftermarket bell. Most big scooter clutches will outlast the bell, but the bell doesn't look broken, so it doesn't get changed.
If you replace the part that wasn't able to hold up to the way you use the bike with the cheapest one you can find, remember that it was made with the cheapest steel they could find and will start acting up sooner than the OEM one did.
The clutch bell can easily get to 600 degrees or more under hard use. That's a lot of heat.
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I have removed this from the sticky category - as there are so many differing opinions regarding the reasons for clutch judder - and as many differing opinions on how to prevent it, and how to fix it, to make for a definitive repair 'sticky'.
Clutch judder posts for the LIKE200i would now best be described as a discussion of this common scootering subject.
Readers are encouraged to read through the posts and to decide for themselves how this applies to their experience.
Stig
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Hey folks,
here is an advise from a respected Kymco dealer and senior mechanic in Germany who regularily is in contact with Kymco:
He recommends -seriously! - after sanding and cleaning the clutch pads and bell inside, to spray the pads with WD40 Oil. Let it soak in a few minutes and then wipe off the excess oil with a peace of paper towel or similar, so that the pads themselves arent "slippery oily wet" anymore. Do NOT degrease or clean it afterwards! Also give the inside of bell a short thin wipe with these used oily papertowel.
Then reasemble the whole clutch bell belt parts in the right and correct manner.
With this method your clutch judder problems should be solved longterm and you should have a buttery smooth operating clutch.
I know that this method may sound wierd a bit for many of us, yes it does, but this mechanic and several people in the german Kymco forum have used this method and have confirmed, that this method does the trick.
I myself haven´t tested it yet and lived with the judder for almost 20.000km now. My judder issue varies depending on temperature. To cold isnt good and too hot isnt good.
I have planned to replace my whole drivetrain wear parts next year at roundabout 22.000km. Then I will either use a better aftermarket clutch or I will also use the trick with WD40 decribed above.
So, who is willing try it and report in the US?
Stig? Long boring winter days and nights are ahead of us all and your Like for sure estimates some cosy treatment from you. :) ;)
Thanks for some very interesting comments.
My scooter's clutch did not judder, but during the previous weekend I removed the variator and clutch assembly on my scooter just for inspection, and eventually discovered some interesting observations and results - which might be applicable to this topic.
I couldn't find any wear on the variator components - everything was clean an I just put everything back in place as is.
At the variator I discovered that the needle bearing was running almost dry - so I removed the old grease and re-packed the bearing with CV joint grease.
Probably the most important observation (as far as this topic is concerned) is that I discovered quite a lot of clutch pad dust inside the bell, as well all over the inner clutch components. In fact - after the clutch bell was removed I turned it over to see If I could see any wear at the inside of the outer rim. The outer rim was still in perfect condition, but probably the most important observation was that I discovered a "puddle" of loose clutch pad dust lying at the bottom of the outer rim.
Gravity obviously caused the loose dust to gather at the bottom of the bell when I turned the bell over.
So I just removed the clutch dust inside the bell, and used an air gun to blow out all the dust at the inner clutch components. I then put everything back in place, and the scoot was ready to go again.
Believe it or not, after this service I immediately experienced an improvement in the scooter's general performance. For example - I use this scooter for commuting on a daily basis - and suddenly I sensed more "power" when I ride uphill on a certain stretch on my way to town. I initially thought it was just my imagination, but then realized the scooter is reaching a higher speed than before when I get to the top of the hill. Unlike before, the scooter is now even capable of picking up some slight speed while I'm riding uphill.
This improvement in performance initially really boggled my mind, because I didn't touch the engine. All I actually did was to re- grease the needle bearing, and to remove all clutch dust inside the clutch bell, and clutch components.
Long story - but right or wrong, I don't think re-greasing the needle bearing caused any improvement in my scooter's performance. I am quite convinced that that the clutch pad dust which gathers inside the clutch assembly by time actually gets trapped between the bell and pads whenever the clutch engages, and when this happens the clutch can easily start slipping.
In short - after reading your comments, I started Googling about cooling bells and discovered some very interesting images. I like the bells with the fins on the outer ring, but thinking back about my experience, I think the bells with fins at the sides, or modifications at the holes at sides is a better idea for a simple reason : the fins at the sides will not only help to cool down the bell, it will also help blowing out the clutch dust which can easily cause improper clutch engagement.
Some pictures of cooling clutch bells which I think might be a better option. I think the bell at the 3rd picture might cause more wear on the pads, but at least the dust which gathers inside the bell will escape through the holes:
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I think you are on to something!
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I think you are on to something!
I really hope more owners with about 6000 miles / 10 000 Kms on their scooters will just remove all dust at their clutch bell and clutch components - and report back about about their scooter's performance in general.
I'm almost prepared to bet my front teeth that they WILL experience a better performance on their scooters !
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I replaced my drive belt and rollers at 8,000 miles and found that the clutch bell was in good serviceable condition and had no bluing. I installed Dr. Pulley sliders to improve performance and sanded the clutch shoes and cleaned the bell friction surface. After cleaning out the CVT cover and variator I buttoned everything up and after 2000 more miles the clutch is still quite smooth as it had been before the service was performed.
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.......................I installed Dr. Pulley sliders to improve performance and sanded the clutch shoes.............. After cleaning out the CVT cover and variator I buttoned everything up and after 2000 more miles the clutch is still quite smooth as it had been before the service was performed.
I assume you mean the Dr. Pulley performance sliders, as well as sanding the clutch shoes did not help to improve performance at all - and the clutch is just as smooth as before the modification / sanding the shoes ?
In my case there was no need sanding the shoes, or to install different sliders. I also do not know what the performance was when the scooter was new. I bought the scooter second hand about four months ago, when the km reading on the odometer was about 8500km.
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No I installed the sliders TO improve performance and they DID. I installed 13gm rather than the stock 14gm and gained acceleration without loss of top speed. The cleaning and scrub of the clutch components were just done as part of the routine CVT tear-down and belt service.
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Oh I'm sorry, thanks for clearing.
I thought you meant the modification and scrubbing the clutch components did not cause any improvement.
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I've routinely cleaned the black belt residue out of the CVT's of 4 different scooters - and never noticed any performance improvement.
Scrubbing the bell and sanding the pads did stop the clutch chatter. But clutch chatter never affected the scoot's performance once underway.
Replacing a narrowed/worn belt has returned the top speed and brought rpm's back to normal throughout the speed range.
Bell color has never affected the scoot's performance in any way that I've noticed. CVT's get hot --- bells especially I think. Normal in stop & go.
I have spare OEM bells for the Piaggio & Kymco that will go on only when the OEM clutch assembly is shot - and replaced with OEM.
Personally - Since my scoots have been good runners - I don't tinker with them - just stay well on top of the normal servicing. Iridium plugs are my choice - and freq oil changes. OEM parts.
Worked well for me for 6 years.
Stig
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UPDATE
Stig was right about the glaze. I sanded them down, and the scooter worked great.....for a couple of days, then the same thing happened. So I took the cover off again, and I noticed a couple of things; my gasket is pretty much absent from decay, and there is a lot of an oily substance inside. So somehow my pads are getting dirty from this substance. I didn't notice much near the variator, but from the middle to back at the clutch, that's where it all lays. So the question is, where is it coming from ??? I have a couple of guesses, like maybe that little rear trans oil drip that everyone seems to have, or because i forgot to hook up that little tube that goes from the air filter to the trans, or my last guess is that because I have that infamous rear wheel squeak, that somehow its coming through a bearing. Or is it possible that it's coming off of my belt? The belt looked ok. BTW the cheapest new gasket I found is about $60. Anybody know somewhere cheaper?
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Sorry, belt cover gasket???
Or bearing seal?
Where are you referring to?
Yes, oil inside the cvt will cause issues in a few places!
Stig
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yes, I am talking about the belt cover gasket, mine pretty much doesn't exist anymore. So I am wondering if that is where the oily substance is coming in, and is it oil from the streets, or my bike.
I guess I need to start with a new gasket. The cheapest one I can find is $60, seems a bit high
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yes, I am talking about the belt cover gasket, mine pretty much doesn't exist anymore. So I am wondering if that is where the oily substance is coming in, and is it oil from the streets, or my bike.
I guess I need to start with a new gasket. The cheapest one I can find is $60, seems a bit high
@$15 here...
https://www.partsoutlaw.com/oemparts/a/kym/5b50e9a387a866110c2e096d/crank-case (https://www.partsoutlaw.com/oemparts/a/kym/5b50e9a387a866110c2e096d/crank-case)
But I would look closely at the two seals on the shafts for leakage.
Oil is not coming in from the bottom of the belt cover, or the ends. And only if you see oil laying on top of the CVT would I suspect that it's getting through the seam of the belt cover. That's a pretty darn close fit there for anything to get in. Some argue that a gasket it not greatly needed if you ride mostly in the dry.
There is no other way for oil to get into the CVT chamber on a LIKE200i.....but through the two shaft seals, or a lot of oil laying on top of the cover's seam seeping in (doubtful)
If too much grease was applied, or applied in the wrong places, and is leaving the clutch assembly to be spread around inside....but that should be obvious during inspection.
The gearbox vent to the airbox cannot send oil to the CVT assembly, unless the airbox is flooded and leaking straight down onto the belt cover.
Remove the drain cap on the 'puke tube' , (clear hose hanging down just forward of the belt cover) to release whatever is inside.
Let us know what you find when inspecting the two seals on the 2 shafts.
Stig
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UPDATE
Stig was right about the glaze. I sanded them down, and the scooter worked great.....for a couple of days, then the same thing happened. So I took the cover off again, and I noticed a couple of things; my gasket is pretty much absent from decay, and there is a lot of an oily substance inside. So somehow my pads are getting dirty from this substance. I didn't notice much near the variator, but from the middle to back at the clutch, that's where it all lays. So the question is, where is it coming from ??? I have a couple of guesses, like maybe that little rear trans oil drip that everyone seems to have, or because i forgot to hook up that little tube that goes from the air filter to the trans, or my last guess is that because I have that infamous rear wheel squeak, that somehow its coming through a bearing. Or is it possible that it's coming off of my belt? The belt looked ok. BTW the cheapest new gasket I found is about $60. Anybody know somewhere cheaper?
Sounds like you might have the same problem I have on my Agility at the moment. The new clutch also started juddering about two weeks ago. CVT cover removed, and I discovered a smallish puddle of oil inside the cover, right under the clutch bell. The bottom part of the bell is quite close to the bottom part of the bell, and the bell got in contact with the oil - specially when the scooter is leaning over when the side-stand was used.
When the bell was removed, I discovered that the clutch pads were soaked with oil. Clutch pulley removed, and it became clear the gearbox oil seal at the clutch shaft was weeping.
I didn’t have a new oil seal so I just cleaned the clutch pads and put everything back as is. I still need to find a new oil seal.
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Thanks Stig for the advice and Parts Outlaw tip, I just ordered 2. BTW it's Racing Planet that wants $60.
I am thinking that the gasket is going to solve my problem, I also had a rear dowel pin missing, so I ordered that too. That tube was disconnected at the air box, so I didn't know if it was possible for oil to be coming up from the trans. And I've always had a little oil leakage near that top trans filler bolt inlet. I will takeT yours and Scooterfan's advice about checking the seal, but I don't think that's it.
PartsOutlaw says their shipping might take a while, so it might be a while before I can post the outcome. I would really love for this problem to be solved once and for all.
I bought this scooter new when I lived in the city, now I love in the mountains, on a very rough road. I'm sure that's not helping.
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OK, I'm a little late to this party...I have also thought the cvt cover gasket does nothing if you only ride in the dry..I suppose it could prevent rain water from entering if you ride in the wet.
As for oil dripping from above and getting into the cvt cover? It would be obvious with oil pooling up top if this was the case..but where would it come from? It's theoretically possible to way overfill your gearbox oil...and have the excess blow into the airbox and then drip out..but even that is suspect. And the OP said his vent tube from the gearbox wasn't even connected to the airbox.
Now maybe the vent tube was draining onto the top of the cvt cover?
I would still say a leaking oil seal inside the cvt cover is the most likely culprit. Those seals prevent engine oil and gearbox oil from leaking out..they eventually wear and will start seeping/leaking. If it's oily near the back and not the front I'd zero in on the seal in the back for the gear oil under the clutch.
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Various videos show how to safely remove an oil seal on a shaft.
New seal is about $6.
I'd check with cylclepedia.com tech, or your local dealer, because it looks like the front and rear seals may be the same part # (same size) , or maybe not?
Stig
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OK, I'm a little late to this party...I have also thought the cvt cover gasket does nothing if you only ride in the dry..I suppose it could prevent rain water from entering if you ride in the wet.
As for oil dripping from above and getting into the cvt cover? It would be obvious with oil pooling up top if this was the case..but where would it come from? It's theoretically possible to way overfill your gearbox oil...and have the excess blow into the airbox and then drip out..but even that is suspect. And the OP said his vent tube from the gearbox wasn't even connected to the airbox.
Now maybe the vent tube was draining onto the top of the cvt cover?
I would still say a leaking oil seal inside the cvt cover is the most likely culprit. Those seals prevent engine oil and gearbox oil from leaking out..they eventually wear and will start seeping/leaking. If it's oily near the back and not the front I'd zero in on the seal in the back for the gear oil under the clutch.
I’m not sure about other scooters, but on the Agility the whole CVT cover is sloping downwards from
the front to the back. This means a puddle of oil might be found at the back under the Clutch - while the oil could actually be coming from the oil seal in front.
It might be better to focus on both oil seals.