KymcoForum.com
Motorcycles => Venox 250 => Topic started by: Nic on May 02, 2012, 08:13:52 PM
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Awesome Venox team, 8)
I've seen similar posts in the scooter forums but not in the Venox, so wanted to run it by you all.
Are fuel additives like STP Fuel System Cleaner for Ethonol or the Sea Foam or Star-tron (from the scooter forums) good in the Venox? My Issues:
-My 2007 Venox doesn't idle until warm and run down the road a bit (I start it with choke on).
-Slow to jump off in 1st at stops (like one carb jet isn't kicking in until late)
-Occationally stalls while slowing or stopping unless I ride the throttle and keep it going
-runs well once in a constant speed (runs better in a higher than called for gear-ex: runs better in 2nd when I should probably be in 3rd, better 3rd than 4th, etc)
No other issues.
So, a guy who used to work for Kymco, demo'ing the bikes said put the additive in. I heard it may be bad for Venoxes. Also heard (but don't know anything about) of the sea foam and Star-tron? Where can I get them and are they ok for our Venoxes?
(Background) - The previous owner didn't run it much, carbs were cleaned last year sometime, but the guy still didn't run it well. Using Super unleaded gas. - Thanks for your help! - Nic
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Also add to this: Mechanic has looked at it-tuned it up, upped the idle all the way, replaced fuels/filters, ran some clean racing fuel through it (all within the last month). His suggestion is to "run it-it should work itself out (clean out). It just needs to run."
-Nic
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not true! if the carbs were stripped and cleaned the effect will be immediate, what you are saying seems to be like a cylinder balance or jetting issue. i dont trust mechanics who will not do the job with me observing. there are all types of people out there, so best to know what to do and just make sure he does it.
as i said if it was a dirty system, it would have been resolved as soon as the clean and re-tune. not having to wait.
so my advice is to check that the cylinders are balanced and that the carb. has really been striped and cleaned and put back together properly. front and rear main jets are not the same size so take care of that, they look 100% the same just the number on it is different! check the manual, if i remember right the front is 110 and the rear is 108. both slow jets are 35 and main jet needle look the same but has different part number. play around! have fun and get to know your bike!
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So Max,
Are you saying that if the carbs were cleaned out last year, and the bike was not run a lot before I got it - it still shouldn't be acting like this? Not enough time for the jets to get "gunked up" again?
If I don't know anything about taking my carbs apart and cleaning, could I ruin/break stuff attempting on my own? Or should I attempt to "play around" as you say? Use the manual and "You Tube" and get started I guess:) Or should I begin with trying the additives for a few weeks?
Another question - How much time should I plan for if I'm going to attempt my own carb cleaning and balance the cylinders? - Nic
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You seem too curious about additives. Your bike will run fine without additives. Have a good mechanic check everything first.
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I would at least try the Sea Foam. Ethanol will create issues with residue inside the float bowl. Try double dosing for two tanks full. Also get a cheap Vacuum gauge, and check the cylinder balance. It sounds like one cylinder is running the idle for both. Same as every post... New plugs/fuel, and air filters. Like you pointed out several months of sitting with ethanol fuel WILL gum up the carbs but it may be soon enough that Sea Foam will dissolve it.
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1st time stripping tank, seat, plastics, airbox, cooling hose, cables around 1-1/2 hours if you have a manual. without it i would not think its a good idea unless you have some experience of what you are doing. Air box is a little bit tricky the others come off easy if you have the right tools. you will need a good screw driver for the carbs which fit snug on the screws otherwise... the screws are a bit soft. after the carb is off around 1 hours to take it apart and half the time to put everything back together again.
2nd time round... fast as hell.
you will need a guage to balance and some hose as well. and a bottle of carb cleaner! remember to take out the rubber parts of the carb before you start using the product and compress air blow clean after as well.
when you get to the carb part check the jets and clean every orifice you can find, then check every part is correct (right jet in the right carb, right float...)
i cleaned my carb one month before i stored it and rode it to the storage location, 4 months after it fired up and when i took it apart again it was still pretty clean. nothing clogged.
braking stuff is not very high just have to use the right tools, and make sure you put it back correct. the only thing which can go wrong is parts missing or parts going back to the wrong place... (jets wrong carb) other then that nothing much. cooling hose for the carb you might have to mark or remember which one is which one, but a liitle advice to you. you can keep the middle connecting peace on the carb even during the cleaning. if you want i can write a step by step for you if you have problems after reading the manual, manual can be downloaded there is user manual and a service manual for the venox. you will need to service manual which is the big one.
let me know what you need and get cracking! not so hard to be honest, just have to be careful.
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oh and running with an un ballanced engine is not good at all, if the jets are clogged anything desolving or product takes a little time to work, i would use those only as prevention and before i store the bike, not for cure. one tank of fuel is around 200km to 250km of wear on the engine... if that time was run on unballanced engine crank life you decrease! even fail, so strip and clean buddy strip and clean!
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Thanks for the info team. It's getting worse now (perhaps becasue of the running on an unballanced engine?). Have a hard time starting even with clutch now. First 5-minutes on the bike is very difficult to keep running, before everything kicks in and it goes (like both carbs/all jets firing). So, looks like I have some checking to do before I ride it again:((...Thanks again for the advice. I have the user and service manual.
-Nic
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alright buddy from what you are saying Zombie is right you are idling with one cylinder when its cold and runing on 2 when its warmer but never running on 100%, so your carb setting is off or dirty, most probably the pilot jet. when you start the bike to warm up feel the cylinders and find the one thats not working on idle. since you got to clean and balance it might help to know which one it is and locate the problem. but do clean the whole thing buddy! its just the start of the season, get it cleaned and balanced and you will be good for the whole season! good luck! looking good!
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Ok here goes I have some time to write this out hope it will benefit people.
1st: remove side panel of the seat and front chrome plastic plates hiding the air filter and the thermostat and also the odo meter and speed sensor cable.
2nd remove seat. Then the tank by disconnecting the fuel level sensor and the fuel tube and over flow tube and make sure the tank is free of everything and ready for removal
3rd disconnect the carburetor cables and tube (make a note of where which tube/cable goes where) disconnect the throttle sensor cable.
4th remove the air filter and unscrew the air box, there is a hose that runs to the turn just around the big turn of the big rubber tube between the air box and air filter you have to disconnect that. This next part is the hard bit. The air box is very difficult to slide out, I find pushing forward and sliding right is the only way to get it out, take is easy and move about if it could get in then for sure it can get out!
5th unscrew the two screws holding each carburetor to the manifold and free the choke cable from the frame and the idle speed adjusting screw. Now both of the carburetors should be able to be lifted out from the engine. Put clean clothes to prevent anything from falling into the manifold. Drain the carbs by the drain screw under each bowl.
6th unscrew 4x2 screws holding the carbs to the air pan. Take care those screw are soft! Get a nice fitting screw driver!
7th start working on one carb at a time. Open the black plastic cover for the diaphragm and take the diaphragm and spring needle out, very careful here not to damage the rubber or the spring and needle.
8th unscrew the 4 screws holding the bowl and open the bowl, use fitting screw drivers to take out the pilot jet, main jet and main jet holder, take out the float by unscrewing the retaining screw and take out the pin holding the float. Now use carburetor cleaner and spray into any hole you can find. And blow it again with compress air, repeat a few times if require. At this point also use the carb cleaner to clean and unblock the pilot jet and the main jet. Take care not to get carb cleaner into contact with rubber parts for too long as it will damage rubber parts. When unscrewing the idle mixture screw check that there is a spring, O-ring and a washer inside the hole. Take those out before spraying and blowing otherwise you will lose them. At this point also unscrew the choke and clean the hole with carb cleaner.
9th now that everything is cleaned give it a general blow to get most of the carb cleaner off, now before you fit everything back make sure that you have the right jet for the right carb. Front main jet is 110 and rear is 108, slow jets are both 35. Fit all the jets back and but the bowl on then move back to reassembling the diaphragm side, make sure the needle sits well and secure between the plastic cap and the diaphragm. Turn idle mixture screw to stock setting which is 1-1/2 turn out and now do the same for the other carb!
After that both carbs are cleaned and reassembled put the whole bike back together and get ready for balancing.
Balancing… now that’s another thing all together. Need vacuum gauge and play with the balance screw on the bridge connecting the 2 carbs to get an even vacuum. Good luck!
If you get stuck and have problems just write me and I will check every day and try to help you out!
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God loves you Max!
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Wow Max thanks! I was going to ask you to pull that out and you're all over it:)
I took the Zombie advice and added sea foam this morning and will add some the next gas-up. Love the checklist post; I will copy and begin as soon as I can. I stopped at Auto Zone to ask about a vacuum gauge and they gave me a blank stare and had no idea what it was. Is this something I get at a motorcycle shop or something maybe only available online? I see all kinds online from $4 to $60. Is there a certain brand or type I should look for when you say "buy a cheap one?" Are there ones that are too cheap?
I'll definitely keep you all posted here so others can benefit from the solutions. Thanks again - Nic
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i think all motorbike service has them. if they dont then run away... i think if you have more then one cylinder you got to have one. i dont have one but i go to shops which do have one and borrow it and finish the job on the spot and chat with people.
you will find that after you clean the carb the bike will be nice to ride even without balance, but please remember to take it for balance as soon as you can, if the cylinder is out of balance you might have a crank failure very soon. good luck!
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http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/KAL-EQUIP-Vacuum-and-Pressure-Tester-2T553?Pid=search (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/KAL-EQUIP-Vacuum-and-Pressure-Tester-2T553?Pid=search)
That's the one I use. Just splice a "T" fitting into the vacuum line on each manifold, and adjust idle mix, and speed till they read the same.
Your bike will have never run better.
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Thanks Zombie! Not really sure what you mean there about the splicing the T-fitting. Can you explain that a little bit?
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There is a 1/8" nylon T fitting included in the Gauge kit. You will need to buy one short piece of tubing to install the gauge onto the intake manifolds vacuum port. Adjust that carb to get the Highest reading, and move the gauge to the other manifold, and repeat. This may take several attempts to get the readings exactly the same on both manifolds. You will most likely see one is much higher than the other, and the low reading side is the carb that has the issue. Find/correct the issue, and they will "balance".
Your problem could be a simple hose disconect/clogged filter/loose fitting on the manifold/air leak on the manifold/clogged jets/mis adjusted float/loose carb cap/missing throttle cable boot/worn carb seals/missing screw on a butterfly valve/burnt intake,exhaust valve/loose header pipe/cracked muffler/clogged muffler/leaking head gasket/loose spark plug/bad coil/coil wire/bad plug/bad cdi/bad igniter coil/mis gapped plug/fouled plug/clogged fuel filter/collapsed fuel line/debris inside fuel nipple/ Simple things like those!
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just buy 2 :) you will use it for a long time i am sure. every time after storage and maybe your mates need to use it. so get 2 and hook it up to the bike.
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/VACUUM-GUAGE-2-CYLINDER-TOOLS/dp/B0069RLU84/ref=sr_1_33?ie=UTF8&qid=1336296487&sr=8-33 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/VACUUM-GUAGE-2-CYLINDER-TOOLS/dp/B0069RLU84/ref=sr_1_33?ie=UTF8&qid=1336296487&sr=8-33)
did a quick look. or http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Carburetter-Balancing-Calibration-Synchronisation/dp/B003370YWQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1336296413&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Carburetter-Balancing-Calibration-Synchronisation/dp/B003370YWQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1336296413&sr=8-4)
both good for life time. i would get the 4 set. you never know if you get a 4 cylinder in line engine in the future...
think i will order one now myself. 3 times borrowing the gauge will even out the price.
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NICE!
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Well, as I was gathering things this weekend to get ready to do a carb cleanout and check my cylinders, I realized my busy schedule was too much to handle a project like this. So I went to my motorcycle shop to drop off the bike and explain the continuing issues (most recent was that the idol, all of a sudden, was really high and bike was overheating).
But as I got up Saturday morning to do this, the idol was still high - but my troubles seemed to go away. The bike was idoling on its own without clutch, it took off in 1st gear with both cylinders firing it seemed, no putts or jerks from stop lights. Only a temp issue it seemed after 15-minutes.
As I got to the mechanic, we adjusted the idol knob together and it was sounding nice on its own. Mechanic agreed and no need to take it apart to mess with anything (especially since it's intricate and would cost me 600 bucks or so for the mechanic to do it).
Rode it yesterday and it's doing great-better than it ever has. Now the temp gauge issue may be a bubble issue in the line that is sitting on the sensor and causing the bike to look like it's overheating (according to the mechanic)? He said shake the bike while it runs to move the bubble to the top of the system to see if that helps.
But other than that - the carb/imbalance issue seemed to work itself out from running it for about 1000 kilometers since I had the initial problems, and after two seafoam inserts. Coincidence? Normal? Maybe the mechanic was right when he said "just keep riding it" to get the carbs to burn out some of that gunk? So- I might say "fuel additives-YES!" at this point - I still feel like I should dedicate some time to take a peek myself - but it's running good now and don't want to disturb it! LOL Anyway, finally enjoying riding it again and I'll keep you posted on this subject as I go along. I've copied your posts/instructions for a future date of work and bought one of the 4-cycle synchronizers so I'm ready.
Thanks for all the help. Please post your thoughts to this latest development if you have any.
-Nic
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Well, as I was gathering things this weekend to get ready to do a carb cleanout and check my cylinders, I realized my busy schedule was too much to handle a project like this. So I went to my motorcycle shop to drop off the bike and explain the continuing issues (most recent was that the idol, all of a sudden, was really high and bike was overheating).
But as I got up Saturday morning to do this, the idol was still high - but my troubles seemed to go away.
The idol should stay off the weed... ;D 8) :P
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good to here that its running ok now. to find if the bike is really over heating, infrared heat sensor or just a normal thermometer and just stick it where there is heat and check it out. maybe your cable has snapped.
if the bike was tuned and balanced before and that the jets are now run clean, there is no need to take it apart. just long time running unbalanced cyclinders will make you crank fail sooner.
so now that its running ok no need to strip and clean, just check that the cylinders are balanced. can be done in 30 min.
good luck! and enjoy the ride!
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It's good to hear. Additives are not a magic cure all but if used at the right time for the right problems they do work. I've been using Sea Foam for about 12 years, and It has never let me down. If it does nothing that means mechanical intervention is needed.
I would follow up with at least one more double dose tank full. That will assure you your fuel system is clean. After that install a NEW fuel filter, and all should be well.