KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => LIKE 200i => Topic started by: Stig / Major Tom on August 10, 2014, 12:47:40 AM
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Today I put in the new fuel injector - and new coil with new plug lead and cap, and new stock NGK spark plug, and removed the fuel pump from the tank for a look-see. Cleaned the filter as much as possible on the pick-up of the fuel pump.
Verdict: engine continues to have an intermittant stumble - starts perfectly, idles fine, accelerates fine, nearly full throttle fine, full throttle fine. Does not like to cruise at lower 20's and stumbles sometimes into the 30's and 40's. Some 1/2 hr rides it stumbles only once or twice. Other rides it can cut-out alarmingly in traffic.
Next up is an email to Kymco regarding the scoot's issues, and a conversation with my salesman. I will ask him to keep the scooter for a time & take a few short trial rides under 25mph until the stumble shows itself. The scooter is under warranty for 9 more months.
FYI - the tank looked very clean.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/33axchs.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/28qx204.jpg)
Stig
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Do these have a MAF mass air flow sensor on the air intake? If so I wonder if a cleaning of the sensor wire could help. Just an idea.................
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It uses map so no maf to clean. STIG, you should really get a fuel pressure tester and set it up so you can read it while riding. I know I sound like a broken record, but the fuel pump is a suspect IMHO.
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It uses map so no maf to clean. STIG, you should really get a fuel pressure tester and set it up so you can read it while riding. I know I sound like a broken record, but the fuel pump is a suspect IMHO.
Thanks, I'm listening! :-)
At Tim H. having a cup of joe on their patio....looking at my Forza, reading all suggestions for the Like. Going to be a nice sunrise by the looks of it!
A question, could a check of the pump with a multimeter tell me I have a problem with the pump, or must I test the flow pressure actual?
Wearing my new Sliders jeans ( an unfortunate name, but sells them , I guess)
Still no CELP codes coming up.
$200 in parts and (dealer) labor so far.
Manual says no serviceable parts in a fuel pump...just pop a new $200 one in there.
Going to check my warranty, electrical parts covered only part of the two years
. To remind you more advanced mechanics (,than me...) this cutting out/stumbling started one morning one hour into my ride....felt something strange while cruising less than 25mph thru state park. .then the big time bucking and cutting put...went straigkt home. Has been intermittently an isuue for weeks now. Something quit working properly at that time.
I'm a carpenter, not a scooter mechanic....trying to suss this out....
Ride safe,
Stig
PS, can this pump be rebuilt by an electrical shop? Or swapped out for another scoot/bike part? The pump just clips in to the holder...
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Stig,
Thanks for keeping us updated! Sorry you're having trouble finding the problem. From a non mechanic view..I think it's the fuel pump. It would almost have to be, everything else is new:)
I'm still angry at your dealer...they should have tried harder!!! I"ll give great pause before buying another Taiwan/Chinese scooter for this very concept.
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Something quit working properly
Segmenting the discussion of this issue in several threads definitely complicates finding a solution!
(http://ratz.com/urls/chainyank0300/images/yankaward.gif)
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Folks...
What about fitting a 12V fuel pump - which seem to be avail. from several sources for motorcyles and 4 wheelers? Those characterised as suitable for EFI?
Any ideas what type pressure values I'd need.
I ask, because there are several avail for @$35 - and resemble the cylinder shape of my pump.
$200 for the Kymco pump.
$100 to have my dealer take another shot.
@ $35 for a tester.
I'm a big guy - I can (and do) take shots from various forum referees - but, you know, it's too nice a day and I ride scooters - so I'm a pretty easy fellow and you wouldn't believe how often I laugh at myself.
Here's the punch line to my favorite joke: "Because Skeeter ain't never seen a wreck like we're fixin' to have!"
Stig
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Fuel pressure your looking to get about 43psi with a +/- of about 5psi. I would honestly stick to the Kymco pump, other options you might run into fuel leaks or other odd issues. Take out the oem pump and see if you can find non-Kymco markings anywhere on it, possibly find it from another source that way. A fuel pressure tester will help you on other projects in the future and should work for: Honda scooters, cars, any other EFI bike you get in the future. Good thing to have in the tool box. I would loan you the shop one but with my luck would need it the day I send it out.
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If one could buy the Kymko fuel pump and return it if it didn't help. Even with a restocking fee it might be the easiest "next thing" and hopefully the last:) It'sjustathought...
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Most sites will charge up to a %25 re-stocking fee making that hardly worth even returning.
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Yeah I guess, but 200-50=150 in my pocket or 200-0=0 ...for each his own though. Anybody would have an extra if they kept it, but I seldom use "extra" parts.
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Being as your scoots still under warranty, and the mechanic at your shop can't figure it out. At some point shouldn't Kymco be responsible for replacing it with a new one?
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Being as your scoots still under warranty, and the mechanic at your shop can't figure it out. At some point shouldn't Kymco be responsible for replacing it with a new one?
My thoughts exactly. Your warranty is still valid. Contact Kymco USA and demand your right to the warranty. Don't let the dealer or Kymco talk their way out of it. You purchased under good faith. I'll get off my soapbox now. Just hate knowing a fellow Like owner isn't getting the service he is entitled to.
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Stig, are you paying for these parts out of pocket? You're still under warranty. And in your other post you said the dealer attributes this to a weakening fuel pump and the injector... WTF wouldn't you have him replace this under your warranty then????
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Stig, are you paying for these parts out of pocket? You're still under warranty. And in your other post you said the dealer attributes this to a weakening fuel pump and the injector... WTF wouldn't you have him replace this under your warranty then????
Dear Dole...
OK, let's go over here and have a sit down in the shade.
I spoke with a respected scooter dealer/owner/mechanic in southern California about my LIKE's problem.
He said his LIKE is doing something very similar - stumbling at 20-30MPH. He attributes this to the rather small injector and fuel pump which these scoots were born with. His point is they might almost be too small to begin with - and may now be showing their age with intermittent driveability symptoms. He factored in that it is under 200cc's and is aircooled and has EFI. I don't know what that means. It seemed significant to him.
MY dealer found NO driveability issues. I paid $57 for their 1/2hr test ride. I'm pretty sure that even though I explained in detail - how, when and what it was doing, and that I had 7000 miles experience with the scooter to back up my statement that it was cutting out in traffic repeatedly, and that it was on its 4th tank of gas from a different station, and that Techron and SeaFoam had already been tried and that I was now walking and riding the city bus because I had to park the scooter - He wrote down this: "Runs bad."
He gave it to his runner - he drove it through the stumbles at 25MPH with a lot of throttle. and brought it back with "no problems".
Service managers should be the world's best listeners - but too many of them are not. Sadly.
We all know the frustration of having an issue with a car - and the mechanic can't replicate it. So he gives it back to you and it acts up on the way home. It's not a commie plot. Just life with a simple machine and a lousy listener for a mechanic..
Putting in a fuel pump.
If that doesn't work - I'll take it back and ask my salesman (the owner's son) to ask them to try short, slower test rides. If that doesn't work then we'll call Mrs. Kymco in Taiwan and book an appointment. Things will get exciting then.
Stig
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Stig,
You put the shop guy on the back while YOU drive and replicate the issue, than you know he knows. Does this have nothing to do with your cdi box, throttle sensors, etc? Some electrical part in the initial stages of failure.
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I'm surprised they charged you to test ride...... Then say well it's fine. You should email kymcousa a long detailed message with forum links once you do nail it down for at least slight reimbursement. I have a vantage point from scooter rider to test riding customer bikes and there has been times I have not felt claimed stumble/stalling/ect and it sucks because a dealer especially small like us can only test ride for so long. It does not sound like you're dealer was TRYING to find a problem.
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Stig if this were a car the symptons you describe are exactly what a bad tps would do. Throttle position sensor. If you have a DVOM you can test it. Voltage sweep should be precise from say .5 to 5 volts, no stumbles or eratic readings along the way. Just an idea that won't cost you anything to check besides a $3 dvom from HF. Not exactly sure what the low/high voltage is on a scoot but the principle is the same. At 20/30 mph is where your issue is, so in the middle of that sweep you should find some stumbling......dunno if this has been covered already but this is where my thoughts are.
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Stig if this were a car the symptons you describe are exactly what a bad tps would do. Throttle position sensor. If you have a DVOM you can test it. Voltage sweep should be precise from say .5 to 5 volts, no stumbles or eratic readings along the way. Just an idea that won't cost you anything to check besides a $3 dvom from HF. Not exactly sure what the low/high voltage is on a scoot but the principle is the same. At 20/30 mph is where your issue is, so in the middle of that sweep you should find some stumbling......dunno if this has been covered already but this is where my thoughts are.
2Wheel,
This is the 2nd or 3rd time I've been advised to do this check...problem is I cannot figure where I do the touching and testing. The TPS is in the ECU....not a place I'd want to mess up!
My cyclepedia on-line maual says this fault is found using the Kymco diagnostic tool. ( I have a fellow offering to let me borrow one ) but is there another way to test the TPS...manual says it is in the ECU and to use the Kymco diagnostic tool to test it.
I'm a lousy mechanic - but these remarks about the TPS having a fail section in it is making more & more sense to me. I spent a LOT of time cruising the state parks at that speed ...a lot of time - and was doing so when it first stumbled.
I have the meter. (never used it but can figure it out using youtube)
So, I guess I turn the key on and advance the throttle slowly and read the meter - but where do I hook up the meter?
Thanks a bunch,
Stuig
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TPS sensor is a simple creature, think of a gas guage in the tank same principle. One wire is the feed, should be 5v [if its the same as alot of cars]. There should be 1 or 2 other wires for output. The one going to the ecm is where the voltage should vary as the throttle moves. Wiring diagram would be beneficial. At idle the voltage will read either.5v or the full 5v, then as the throttle is moved the v will sweep. Can't remember if v at idle is full 5v or .5v. Either way doesn't matter it's the sweep that counts. Might be easier with 2 people, one to turn the throttle while testing. No need to disconnect anything, just use the pointed probe to probe the wire connecters from the outside of the connecter.
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Out of a workshop manual for Synerject Systems:
TPS Voltage should be 5Volts measured with key on going from ECU to Sensor. Measured at the TPS Connector and the wire 18 purple/red against ground or wire 16 (which is also ground coming from the ECU).
Furthermore check wire 7 purple/black and wire 16 purple/green for passage to the ECU. And then check (probably after key off!...?) with disconnected wireplug the resistance of the sensor. -> 5Kilo Ohms+/-30%.
Idle 0° ~0.23V+/-0.05V
Full Throttle 90° and over ~3.27V and over
Do not disconnect or connect the ECU Connector while Key on or Scooter is running!
Keihin Systems:
Wire 13 grey/purple voltage measured against ground. -> 5Volts+/-0,25 Volts.
Passage measurement of wires from sensor to connection 5 green/black, 13 grey/purple and 24 green/grey of the ECU Connector.
Resistance measurement between the contacts of the sensor. At 20°C it should be 5 Kilo Ohms+/-30%. Between the green/black and the grey/purple wire.
Take care! This is kind of heart surgery... Doing these measurements the wrong way with short circuits might/will destroy your electronic parts, ecu etc.
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Stig, I have another bright idea: there are two ways to pursue this idea: 1. dyno and 2. street. There is a really good independent tech in Nashville with a dyno. This would require you to get the scoot to Nashville and commission him to find/fix the problem. His number is 615 200 7337 name is Junior Padilla and his shop is Dimelo Motor Works. There might be someone similar nearer to you. You are a good camera guy so you could strap(duct tape) a camera to shoot into the timing hole while the timing light you also taped to shoot in the hole strobes while you ride in the "stumble speed" range. I know both sound a little far fetched but I am suspecting you have something that vibrates at those speeds and the only way you are gonna find it is to "catch it in the act." This all may give you a flash to something else that may be a bit more practical.
Karl
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Stig- One more brainstorm idea that may go nowhere. Is the tach that you installed still connected? Have you tried disabling it and then testing the scoot?
...Len
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Stig- One more brainstorm idea that may go nowhere. Is the tach that you installed still connected? Have you tried disabling it and then testing the scoot?
...Len
Hey Len,
Yes, I've had it off a couple of times when fitting one of the 3 ignition coils...makes "n o d i f f e r e n c e" (use a French accent)
My family of course harbors this (usually, but not always) unspoken idea that because I was always tinkering with it, that I broke it.
It does no good to plead my case that all I've done is:
Bleed the brakes
Change the belt and rollers
Change the plug
Install a Bestem box w/lights
Change the gear and engine oil
Change the plug, coil, plug wire and cap (3 times - no help)
Change the injector
I am about ready to change out the fuel pump with a new Yamaha EFI, 30mm, 12V, intank pump
Have I checked over my work to see if anything I did is causing the stumble at 25MPH cruise --You bet! This thing runs so good at all other speeds it is pathetic! !
It could not run any better....I hammer it and cannot replicate that problem at any other time.
Back off to a slow cruise ...and she stumbles - not every time but most of the time.
Stig
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Stig, I have another bright idea: there are two ways to pursue this idea: 1. dyno and 2. street. There is a really good independent tech in Nashville with a dyno. This would require you to get the scoot to Nashville and commission him to find/fix the problem. His number is 615 200 7337 name is Junior Padilla and his shop is Dimelo Motor Works. There might be someone similar nearer to you. You are a good camera guy so you could strap(duct tape) a camera to shoot into the timing hole while the timing light you also taped to shoot in the hole strobes while you ride in the "stumble speed" range. I know both sound a little far fetched but I am suspecting you have something that vibrates at those speeds and the only way you are gonna find it is to "catch it in the act." This all may give you a flash to something else that may be a bit more practical.
Karl
Hello Karl,
I'm listening here....
Duct tape, timing strobe, vibrations, Grand Ole Opry, cats.
OK - I sent my daughter down to the hardware store for more rolls of duct tape.
Here's the plan:
My sis-in-law collects cats. She has about 25 or so.
I know a single cat will probably top out at say 18 mph - in a steady cruise.
But, say 12 cats duct taped together - end to end - can probably cruise at the required 25 MPH.
So, I duct tape my cell phone -set for video- to the lead cat and climb on my LIKE200i LX. We find some clear road and start the "Scooter Repair With Cats", and post the whole thing on youtube.
I think this is one of my better solutions to my scooter issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8)
I've discarded the idea that something is vibrating & causing a problem.
There is no evidence of that during my dozens of test rides.
I think it is ....the Throttle Position Sensor.
Or a cat issue; one....
Stig
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Rats! ::)
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Stig, I want to be present for the cat duct taping...or at least have a family member record it:) I have a feeling it would be a great utube hit...viral indeed!!
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'Scooter repair with cats," Stig, you are potty in the head! What a video!
Karl
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Exploring the possibility of a failed Throttle Postion Sensor in my scoot's illness.
A senior member - r e a l old guy, I guess - is lending me his Kymco Diagnostic Tool so I can check a few things, namely the TPS.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/nwa1xz.jpg)
From The Biker's Garage:
The components of motorcycle fuel injection systems are reliable, but parts can wear out, or even fail prematurely. When a failure happens the process for diagnosis and repair can seem daunting, but in most cases it’s only a loose wire, or failed sensor.
The most common sensor to fail is the Throttle Position Sensor, or TPS for short. The TPS tells the ECM (Engine Control Module) where the intake butterflies are in their travel from fully closed to wide open. That information, combined with data from other sensors, allows the ECM to correctly meter the fuel being sprayed from the injectors. The primary reason for TPS failure is simply wear, since it moves every time you twist the throttle, eventually it wears out. Typically it will be in one specific place on the throttle, this comes from operating on that point repeatedly.
I did like to cruise at just about 25mph through the State Parks around here....less damage if I nail a deer. I did this every w/e and some week days. Also, this is what I was doing the morning the first set of stumbles occured.
As I tried to explain to the dealer - the scoot runs great at all engine speeds except at a 20-something cruise.
Interesting.
We will see.....
Stig
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Rats! ::)
The cats should take care of those ! ;)
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Stig, ask your buddy where does 1 buy that scanner and how much is it? Also where is the plug at on the scoot? That scanner has to be a simple creature compared to some car scanners.
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Stig, ask your buddy where does 1 buy that scanner and how much is it? Also where is the plug at on the scoot? That scanner has to be a simple creature compared to some car scanners.
Part # is (I'm pretty sure) 3620A-LEB2-E00.
You can bing search this and find prices ranging from $237 to $375.
I did see an eBay seller from Australia selling one for about $100.
Plug-in for the tool is found in the battery box of the LIKE200i.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/24qvko0.jpg)
Stig
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I got my scanner/analyzer from the dealer in Memphis, TN for $239.00 US which included an adapter to read the 4-wheelers. It will read TPS values as seen as voltages at the ECU as well as other parameters with engine stopped or running.
Karl
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Cool thanks a lot. Our local dealer has about as much knowledge as Stig's from what I hear. With towing and hassles associated with that dealer I think that would be a wise investment over time, just fix it myself.
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I got my scanner/analyzer from the dealer in Memphis, TN for $239.00 US which included an adapter to read the 4-wheelers. It will read TPS values as seen as voltages at the ECU as well as other parameters with engine stopped or running.
Karl
Hey Karl and 2wheel and bet&losing,
All you guys..
OK, thanks to Karl I have the Kymco FI diagnostic Tool....
So, to make sure I've got this right....because my cyclepedia manual never mentions starting the engine in its basic instructions for using this diagnostic tool.....so, some questions:
(http://i57.tinypic.com/ol252.jpg)
1) On this screen , with the key on but engine off - I am to advance the throttle slowly and watch for a smooth progression from .23V at off/throttle to something @ 3.27V (+/- .05V) at full/throttle. Yes?
2) Do I have the option to have the engine on or off while doing this throttle position test?
3) And,if I see something in the engine-off mode is it OK to do this with the engine on if I want to explore that 23MPH speed area where it usually stumbles?
4) It also seems as though I am to run some other tests while the engine is warm and running. Engine running - yes?
If I find an issue with the TPS (& I hope I do) I will try to video the episode and take it to the salesman/son of owner at my dealer's. If there is an issue but I cannot get some visual evidence I will take the scoot to the dealer & request that they test the TPS - so we can get the new ECU/Throttle body ordered from Kymco. There is no cleaning or repair for a faulty TPS in this scooter.
Awaiting further instructions....the big box of cats standing by if this testing fails.
Sign me Plenty-0-Duck-Tape
Stig
(for something relaxing - I'm going to go change the oil & filter on my Forza...again)
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Can't help you I have no exp with a kymco scanner. On a car engine does not need to be running to check, scoot not so sure. Do you have a user manual? I don't see it hurting anything to try it with KOEO.
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OK, first experience with the Diagnostic Tool:
Static throttle roll (key on , engine off) found very smooth progression of voltage from 0.24V to 03.24V through the full twist of the throttle (0 > 90degrees throttle)
With the scoot on the center stand and engined warmed to norm. operating temps and running - I tried twisitng the throttle and watching the screen again - this time I found & heard a lot of stumbling and saw the voltage figures jump up and back irratically a few times at the lower speeds - right about where my 23MPH stumbles would be happening.
This continues to be an intermittent fault - in other words it does not repeat each and every time at a low speed cruise...but it comes every outing during a 30 min. ride at some point if I try that speed repeatedly.
It is a pretty severe cutting out / stumble, removing your confidence in heavy city traffic.
I will let things cool and try again tomorrow, and for a couple of days. If I can get it on video with my still camera or cell phone I will be talking to the dealer late next week when I have some time off. Well, I'll be over there, one way or another - to have them run their own TPS test with the engine running at low speeds.
Looking at all the other values on the tool show that everything else is good and well within specifications of a typical LIKE200i print-out.
And the new replacement fuel pump ?....It IS a plug and play.
Went in easily and works great - but did not solve the stumble on the 1st test ride.
I'll go over there and post pix on that thread.
Stig
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Good to hear about a cheap fuel pump option. And about the diagnostic tool, the engine does not need to be running for measurement of most parameters other than rpm, and I would say seeing that erratic voltage is your issue. Does the voltage and the degree change or just voltage?
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Good to hear about a cheap fuel pump option. And about the diagnostic tool, the engine does not need to be running for measurement of most parameters other than rpm, and I would say seeing that erratic voltage is your issue. Does the voltage and the degree change or just voltage?
I think both...but I had a few irons in the fire - so will be repeating for a couple of days to nail it down, if possible.
Stig
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Did you mount the diag. Tool with Velcro or something so you can see it while riding? I've done that before.
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Interesting. Can you pls confirm that you use correct interference free spark plugs, -cables and -caps?
You might also check and measure now the alternator and the regulator/rectifier. Those little electronic hard workers (regulators/rectifiers) might also go bad in time as they have a really hard job to do and have to deal with a lot of heat during their lifetime. I guess they also tend to belong to the circle of the usual suspects on motorcycles.
Good to see, that you are getting closer now.
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Interesting. Can you pls confirm that you use correct interference free spark plugs, -cables and -caps?
You might also check and measure now the alternator and the regulator/rectifier. Those little electronic hard workers (regulators/rectifiers) might also go bad in time as they have a really hard job to do and have to deal with a lot of heat during their lifetime. I guess they also tend to belong to the circle of the usual suspects on motorcycles.
Good to see, that you are getting closer now.
Yes, correct ngk plug, oem leads, cap and coil.
If I do confirm to myself that TPS is failing...it will go back to the dealer. At that point I am finished as a LIKE mechanic. The City Grips will be in their court, as it were...
I am interested in how they will check the faulty TPS with engine running...without a Kymco FI Diagnostic Tool.... must be careful with those micro lead probes on their meter.
Things happen too quickly to try riding and watching screen at the same time... for those fleeting hiccups on the screen... it happens very fast.
Stig
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Sounds like your finally on track Stig. When an engine heats up that can affect the TPS readings. I'm on a quest to get one of those scanners now. Thanks for all your efforts, all of us Like owners have learned a lot.
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Yah, go, Stig! You asked four(4) questions. The answer to all is, "Yes." The tool gets its power from the ECU and then reads what the ECU says. Like I said in the PM, ya can't hurt it unless you run over it. I think it is significant that the TPS is smooth as glass with engine off and wonky with the engine running. I would jump to the conclusion that engine vibration is disturbing some function in what the engineering school calls "sympathetic vibration", and it could be like vespretta said some of the other hard workers in the electric /electronic area. Intermittent 5 volts can really upset lotsa stuff. You could look at 12 volts on the scanner to see what it is doing in the stumble range. I think you can also read the 5 volts somewhere on that thing. The stator, regulator and the rectifiers are off the hook if both are steady. Pretty quick YOU are gonna be the expert with the tool!
The dealer will not have a clue without the tester. You will need to show him on the tool what is going on at stumble speed. You are wise to show him as he can get that expensive three-parts-in-one thingy that includes the TPS. You are already working the warranty idea as well you should. And tell him to get his own scanner! He is supposed to have one anyway!
Karl
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Yah, go, Stig! You asked four(4) questions. The answer to all is, "Yes." The tool gets its power from the ECU and then reads what the ECU says. Like I said in the PM, ya can't hurt it unless you run over it. I think it is significant that the TPS is smooth as glass with engine off and wonky with the engine running. I would jump to the conclusion that engine vibration is disturbing some function in what the engineering school calls "sympathetic vibration", and it could be like vespretta said some of the other hard workers in the electric /electronic area. Intermittent 5 volts can really upset lotsa stuff. You could look at 12 volts on the scanner to see what it is doing in the stumble range. I think you can also read the 5 volts somewhere on that thing. The stator, regulator and the rectifiers are off the hook if both are steady. Pretty quick YOU are gonna be the expert with the tool!
The dealer will not have a clue without the tester. You will need to show him on the tool what is going on at stumble speed. You are wise to show him as he can get that expensive three-parts-in-one thingy that includes the TPS. You are already working the warranty idea as well you should. And tell him to get his own scanner! He is supposed to have one anyway!
Karl
Hey Karl,
OK, just did another test with the diagnostic tool hooked up.
Cold engine, key on , engine off: pretty smooth progression of throttle degrees and volts.
Warm engine, key on, engine off: pretty much the same.
Warm engine, running: major drops & jumps in both throttle degrees and voltage - esp. at @ 4000 rpm.
Engine clearly cutting in and out - rather hard. Sometimes - not always.
OK...question remains: is the TPS at fault if I'm seeing erratic scanner read-outs only with engine running?
Re. the comments about vibrations of electrical parts being to blame: I have read a couple of places that engine vibrations can make worse a bad area in the TPS.
So, since the TPS seems to be a partly physical sensor - I'm thinking vibrations at 4000rpm may not be causing the stumble - but maybe making things worse in an already faulty sensor.
In other words : the TPS is bad at @ 4000rpm, and the vibrations are not helping any.
I suggest this - because in all my road testing - I have never felt an engine stumble that could be solely related to any engine vibrations, bumps, bangs or road conditions. In a couple hundred miles I would have picked this up - since I was looking so hard for a reason for the issue.
To test?: remove seat and seat bucket - start engine with diagnostic tool hooked up. Run engine to 4000rpm and gently tap the TPS (or ECU) See if this has any effect.
Tomrrow will be riding it if it rains.
Ideas always appreciated.
Stig
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I would say it's time to replace the throttle body ecu it could have nothing to do with vibrating but more just when the engine is running causes this failure.
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Think of a car ignition module or a crank sensor. When they go bad a lot of times it's only when heated up, but work well at ambient. That's been a pain in the rear for car owners for the last 25 years. Add in vibration and who knows they just don't work, some times sporadically. TPS is no different.
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Hey Stig, I just got on here after a few month's absence. You're " stumbling" problem....if it's what I've had since new, I just thought it was the nature of the beast. Most of the time it cruises just fine but sometimes ,( steady throttle' flat road, 40-45 MPH) it seems to lurch a bit. I, too, have a 200i and love it mostly. I just didn't know that this is not 'normal'. ???
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Today, Monday, is the day for you to test so I may be behind your activity already. Sounds to me the key is engine speed. Watch the volts during the stumble range (4000 rpm?) for fluctuations. Look for loose stuff when the seat tub is out. I'm outta altitude, airspeed and ideas at this point. I want you to find something sooo bad I can taste it!
Karl
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A screen grab of the Kymco FI Diagnostic Tool, @ 4300RPM
Spent another 1/2 hr setting up this test - engine warm. Captured this video on my cell phone...figured out how to get it to my PC...but cannot figure beyond this.
So the screen grab.
You can clearly hear the engine at a steady speed - so, I'm not playing with the throttle.
Throttle is held at 7.7 degrees of twist of a possible 89 degrees on my scoot.
At a lower throttle you can hear the engine bang on and off but so quick nothing shows on the scanner.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/oibz1v.jpg)
A split second later....
(http://i61.tinypic.com/1t57iu.jpg)
Will test again tomorrow eve. with the seat off - to look for the vibrating pieces some folks think is causing this erratic running. I will try tapping gently on the ECU/Throttle Body/TPS to see if it has an effect.
Again, no fault codes showing from the scoot CELP or the scanner - and all other areas read by the scanner are in the green.
Stig
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Does anyone have an exploded view of the Like intake/throttle body parts diagram? Link or pic? Places like Cyclepedia you need a subscription right?
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Out of curiosity how expensive is that part...not considering warranty. The dealer may not be able to read the pics:):/
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I am only guessing it is an expensive part since it has three things in it. I thought the ECU was separate like all the rest of the EFI scoots.....
Karl
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Does anyone have an exploded view of the Like intake/throttle body parts diagram? Link or pic? Places like Cyclepedia you need a subscription right?
Am I correct in thinking that the TPS is the black plastic thing...the large rectangular block over on the right side in the b/w drawing?
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2gvsa3c.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2l8gg2r.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/24v1blz.jpg)
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This used throttle body/TPS/ecu sold for $249.99 on eBay recently...but here are some good photos of it:
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2wmktb6.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/9up25e.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/1zfidqs.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/dlga4k.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/lz1vr.jpg)
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Yea that black box is the MAP, TPS and ECU all in one. What a stupid design to have to replace the whole thing if just one goes bad. It would seem that black box can be detached from the throttle body and has its own part sticker on it, wonder why it alone can't be replaced? ......OK somebody help me out here. Seems the idle can be adjusted by the set screw where the butterfly is at rest. What is the screw next to it for, has to be some kind of adjustment? Also notice the round black plastic cover to the left of the butterfly/idle rest? There's a pintle/screw there under it, is that for the map measurement or part of the idle circuit? Seems if it's part of the idle circuit and folks have idling problems cleaning that might help it a lot. If it's for map measurement that could be a big problem if it's dirty.........just thinking.
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According to this website all the different parts of the throttle body has their own part #s. It's in pdf and page E08. http://kymcospareparts.com/images/stories/PDF/scooterover50/Like200i-TopCase-KA40AA.pdf (http://kymcospareparts.com/images/stories/PDF/scooterover50/Like200i-TopCase-KA40AA.pdf)
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According to this website all the different parts of the throttle body has their own part #s. It's in pdf and page E08. http://kymcospareparts.com/images/stories/PDF/scooterover50/Like200i-TopCase-KA40AA.pdf (http://kymcospareparts.com/images/stories/PDF/scooterover50/Like200i-TopCase-KA40AA.pdf)
I will give parts warehouse a call with that number for the TPS.....and see what happens.
Will NOT be buying this myself!
Never seen this listed apart from the whole. I suspect the TPS cannot be purchased separately.
Thanks for the info.
Stig
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Guess what? I don't have a wiring diagram for our Like200i and therefore cannot determine why the connector to the MAP/TPS/ECU has so many wires hooked to it in that massive plug. I suspect the actual ECU is somewhere else on the bike like all the rest but won't bet money on it. In any case, I agree, you should not have to fork over a dime for whatever that big block is. Did you get anywhere with trying the stumble rpm while checking voltage? The TPS looks really suspect with your pix.
Karl
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Hey Stig, I just got on here after a few month's absence. You're " stumbling" problem....if it's what I've had since new, I just thought it was the nature of the beast. Most of the time it cruises just fine but sometimes ,( steady throttle' flat road, 40-45 MPH) it seems to lurch a bit. I, too, have a 200i and love it mostly. I just didn't know that this is not 'normal'. ???
I'd have your dealer take a look at it - test ride it if you think it will show itself.
Hope you're not picking up something like an out-of-round tire or unbalanced tire?
Those stock Kendas are not exactly top of the line shoes!
Stig
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Shoot.
Tests all went perfectly this evening.
Then went for a 45 min test ride....stupid thing ran like a Swiss made BMW....fast, arrogant & flawlessly.
I did one thing differently tonight....I went through the Kymco FI Diagnostic Tool to the
TPI / APV RESET screen.
I did that and it said "reset completed, please key off, key on"
The manual says this:
"The throttle position sensor (TPS) and idle air bypass valve (ISC) have to be reset when throttle body, MAP, TPS, ISC or ECU have been reinstalled"
I did not reinstall any of that stuff.....that I know of.
Will try to get it to run lousy tomorrow.
Stig
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Oh yeah!!!!!!! God now I feel stupid for not telling you about the reset!!!!! I do that to every efi out of the crate, figured your dealer did that but now that I remember your dealer DIDN'T HAVE THE DIAG. TOOL, that makes so much sense. I remember our guy at Kymco telling us to do that to all new bikes when we first got the tool. Fingers crossed for ya.
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Do you need the scanner to reset the ECU, if not what steps does it take. Be good to know for future reference.
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The only way on the like is with the scantool i think
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From cyclepedia:
Not sure what is 'early & later models'...my scoot has these wires down there with the battery (and that Diag. Tool plug-in) You're after the pink one....and I think I tried that one a few hundred tries ago...
All the different names used here are confusing (TPI, ABV, TPS, ISC, PTA, NRA, OSU, CBS)
Tested again today...still has the stumbles when running. Nothing happening of note with any other screen, except the TPS screen.
Fired off an email letter w/pix of the screen to KYMCO. (I'd be looking for some medication if I didn't have that pretty NSS300 sitting behind me in the garage as I work on this Kymco. Hopefully you'll understand why I never even considered buying another when I decided to move up - especially when the prices were nearly the same. The scooter/dealer package here just isn't a happy place.)
Stig
(http://i62.tinypic.com/1jvvoi.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2hftett.jpg)
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Stig,
Where can I get one of those analyzer and what do they cost?
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Well, Stig, it still looks like you are hot on the trail! I know reset has been discussed several times on this and other problems. I have not replaced TPS, ISC, ABV or CBS on my DT300i but the reset aka INITIALIZE fixes wonky idle. Come to think about it, reset worked on the Yager, too. However, if there is a transient problem with the TPS, reset won't be permanent. You have figured this all out.
Should NOT need the tool for a reset. BUT considering all the vagaries and errors in both the Owner's Manual, Service Manual I would not be surprised if there was a difference in how the ECU performs after the two flavors of reset/initialize.
B&L, I will be willing to bet that you and Zombie are the only two in the business that actually do a proper PDI on a new machine or one you have repaired. Therefore, do not take personally my jabs at dealers and their techs since it apparently does not apply to either you or the Zomb.
Go, Stig. GO!
Karl
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Stig,
Where can I get one of those analyzer and what do they cost?
See CROSSBOLT page 3, this thread.
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Well, Stig, it still looks like you are hot on the trail! I know reset has been discussed several times on this and other problems. I have not replaced TPS, ISC, ABV or CBS on my DT300i but the reset aka INITIALIZE fixes wonky idle. Come to think about it, reset worked on the Yager, too. However, if there is a transient problem with the TPS, reset won't be permanent. You have figured this all out.
Should NOT need the tool for a reset. BUT considering all the vagaries and errors in both the Owner's Manual, Service Manual I would not be surprised if there was a difference in how the ECU performs after the two flavors of reset/initialize.
B&L, I will be willing to bet that you and Zombie are the only two in the business that actually do a proper PDI on a new machine or one you have repaired. Therefore, do not take personally my jabs at dealers and their techs since it apparently does not apply to either you or the Zomb.
Go, Stig. GO!
Karl
Not at all, I totally agree with it too. I see so many bikes f*%&$# up from other dealers here in town. So I'm on the same page for sure, just that we're not ALL bad!! HAHA. There are some sleeze ball techs out there, cars, boats, scooters, space shuttles etc.
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It would be great if Kymko monitored this forum, and had an engineer/tech comment or offer assistance when an issue seemed beyond dealers and forum participants. That probably makes too much sense....:)
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see post below
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At about 6-7 degrees is that you moving the throttle or it jumping around? That should NOT be doing that. Also I will check a Like 200 with the diag tool off a new bike on the showroom floor, I don't think the adaptation should be 20 degrees that seems high. Possibly making up for a bad TPS reading. Not sure tho. Any word from the dealer?
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At about 6-7 degrees is that you moving the throttle or it jumping around? That should NOT be doing that. Also I will check a Like 200 with the diag tool off a new bike on the showroom floor, I don't think the adaptation should be 20 degrees that seems high. Possibly making up for a bad TPS reading. Not sure tho. Any word from the dealer?
No word from the dealer - but just got off the phone with a factory rep. who called me!
I have removed the videos while I await the results of this conversation.
No, I was holding the throttle as steady as possible.
Very impressed that the company rep. for Kymco called me!
Stig
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I think 200i is onto something! Yes, it would make sense to monitor here and that is why they don't seem to bother...
The rep called you, huh, Stig. That is a very good sign! I, too, think the TPS is the culprit. I can barely wait for the next episode!
Karl
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I think 200i is onto something! Yes, it would make sense to monitor here and that is why they don't seem to bother...
The rep called you, huh, Stig. That is a very good sign! I, too, think the TPS is the culprit. I can barely wait for the next episode!
Karl
The KYMCO USA rep. called me in fairly quick response to my email which I sent yesterday morining, and was passed along to him today.
I've always been impressed by this scooter - and this Kymco representative impressed me as well.
Perhaps they follow some of this forum - but I heard nothing that made me think that.
Stig
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I explained my situation to the Kymco representative . He took some information and phoned my dealer.
Later today he spoke with me again to say that the dealer will be ordering a Kymco FI Diagnostic Tool - because it is not possible to test my scooter's running engine's TPS without this tool.
I opted to remove my two youtube videos of the scan screen capturing what I think is a faulty TPS in operation.
The dealer service tech is to contact me when he has the diagnostic tool and we will schedule a drop-off time for the scooter.
The Kymco USA rep. was quite helpful and seemed sincere in wanting to help me get back to enjoying my LIKE 200i - perhaps I should have contacted them sooner about this problem....but one does not generally think to call Ford HQ in Detroit when you are working with your local dealer to fix your F-150.
We KYMCO owners may have some issues with some of our dealers - but KYMCO USA simply asks that we add them to the loop when discussing serious concerns about their products and/or the people who sell them to us.
I am parking the LIKE - and its testing - for a week or so.
Stig
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After all you've been through Stig...you're certainly giving Kymko the benefit of the doubt, which is commendable.
Kymko USA should require all dealers to have the diagnostic tools as a prerequisite to becoming a dealer. And have a pre dealer training class for mechanics on how to use the equipment. Otherwise...
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Take the bike and the tool to the dealer, if he is amenable, and show him whatcha got. You will be informing him as to how to use the tool and interpret the readings coupled with how the machine is acting. Having gone through some of the requirements to be a dealer, one of the many points is to be able to service the machines they sell which requires an analyzer. Kymco generally ASSUMES the dealer who usually sells other brands to have the smarts to acquire the tools unique to Kymco's. I leave the conclusion to you all.
Karl
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Update Sat. Aug 23
The dealer's service supervisor phoned me today to say he will be ordering the Kymco FI Diagnostic Tool early next week. I am to call back later in the week to see if they have received the scanner from Kymco - and then we will schedule the scooter in for a check. He said that the KYMCO USA rep mentioned the possibily of a bad TPS - the dealer tech said if they find a bad TPS with the scanner tool it will be an easy fix.
At this point I do not care what the issue is - I just want the dealer to witness a poorly running engine when they bench test it.
I trust that if they DO experience it stumbling - they will be able to fix it.
I will ask them to keep it until they do see it stumble. I will not be bringing it home, un-repaired, again.
I have been given the impression that the KYMCO USA rep will be a big help, if this happens.
The scoot remains under warranty -- I'd hate to be going through this if it wasn't.
Stig
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Stig- Glad to hear that Kymco is stepping up to try to push the dealer to do their duty. I think that even if your regular warranty were up the US pollution control warranty would cover the injection system and ECU. All these components are part of the smog abatement systems as are the O2 sensor, catalyst and fuel canister system. Hope they actually experience the fault this time!
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Stig,
Hopefully it won't be too much longer before they figure out the issue(s) and have your Like back running like it should. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
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Stig- Glad to hear that Kymco is stepping up to try to push the dealer to do their duty. I think that even if your regular warranty were up the US pollution control warranty would cover the injection system and ECU. All these components are part of the smog abatement systems as are the O2 sensor, catalyst and fuel canister system. Hope they actually experience the fault this time!
Yes, the Kymco rep (on the phone) told me they would cover this issue even if I was a bit out of the warranty period. I assured him that I am well within my warranty period....but thanked him, anyway.
Stig
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Service manager was to contact Kymco rep. 6 days ago for the part # of the Diag. Tool....then order it. I was told to call after 4 days to see if they have obtained it - then make a time to bring my scoot to see the doctor.
Called today (after 6 days) - the dealer had not ordered the tool yet because co. rep. had not returned his call with the part #.
I told him I have the tool "in my left hand, and here is the part #...."
They will "try again Tuesday" to obtain one from Kymco.
Ah well.
Pass the cheese please.
Stig
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Stig, I fear you may have crossed over into the Twilight Zone. Lol
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Ah, Stig, your dealer, in my opinion, has crossed into the twilight zone. The grumpy words floating around in my head are too foul to list here. Your dealer is performing as most do, I am afraid, and therefore fulfill my low opinion of most dealers. Like the trots, this too shall pass, eventually. You hang in there. I, on the other hand, will take another breath since I have been holding it waiting to hear a favorable solution to your Like's problem.
Karl
I'm layin' there trying to go to sleep and it hits me like the Taco Bell--THE DEALER DOES NOT HAVE THE PART NUMBER FOR THE KYMCO ANALYZER MEANS HE HAS EITHER NOT READ THE SERVICE MANUAL OR DOES NOT HAVE ONE! THAT TOOL IS USED ON ALL THE EFI SCOOTS SO IS FEATURED IN NEARLY ALL SERVICE MANUALS.
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Ah, Stig, your dealer, in my opinion, has crossed into the twilight zone. The grumpy words floating around in my head are too foul to list here. Your dealer is performing as most do, I am afraid, and therefore fulfill my low opinion of most dealers. Like the trots, this too shall pass, eventually. You hang in there. I, on the other hand, will take another breath since I have been holding it waiting to hear a favorable solution to your Like's problem.
Karl
I do have the name and toll free phone number of the Kymco customer service representative....unless he has departed to take a corner office with Taco Bell. (I didn't say that........) No, really, he sounded like a genuinely nice guy.
Stig
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I seriously doubt your dealer ever called the rep...hate to be so negative...just sayin
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Stig, I sure hope your dealer isn't giving you the run around. It just doesn't come off that they are putting any effort into fixing your situation. I sure hope this gets resolved before summer ends. You deserve a resolution.
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I CAN'T STAND IT! STIG, YOU GOT UNTIL NEXT WEEK! I'M GONNA COME UP THERE IF I DON'T HEAR SOMETHING BY FRIDAY AND START RIPPING PARTS OFF THE DEALER! HIS TECH! AND ANYONE ELSE WITHIN ARM'S REACH! I AM GOING BALLISTIC! YOU GOTTA HELP! URGENT!! ARRGGH!
Karl
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I CAN'T STAND IT! STIG, YOU GOT UNTIL NEXT WEEK! I'M GONNA COME UP THERE IF I DON'T HEAR SOMETHING BY FRIDAY AND START RIPPING PARTS OFF THE DEALER! HIS TECH! AND ANYONE ELSE WITHIN ARM'S REACH! I AM GOING BALLISTIC! YOU GOTTA HELP! URGENT!! ARRGGH!
Karl
Um, Meester Crossbolt, this is Bernadette Stig writing......
Mr Stig is presently away on business in Uruguay ( or maybe it was Paraguay) but he did pay a visit to the Kymco dealer today. He said he asked two questions: Do they have the Kymco DIAGNOSTIC TOOL yet, and are the Forza valve shims 7.48mm in diameter?
Very sadly, Mr Stig reports thusly: "No, he's not answering my phone messages!
And yes, 7.48mm is the correct shim size for a Honda NSS300!"
Mr Stig said a few words in the French that he picked up while in the Army, and is planning to phone some fellow, come Monday.
So, Mr Krossboat, please keep your pants on and await furthering increments (as we say in my country)
Mr Stig is On The Cases, or my name is not Bernadette Stig, by jove!
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Thank you, Bernie Stig. Please tell Meester Steeg I will keep my pants on but I am holding my breath again awaiting the latest "avoidance tactic(s)" of his miserable dealer. Not Uruguay, not Paraguay, but Gonaway! Does sound like his best bet is with the regional rep he found. Oh, well.
Karl
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Thank you, Bernie Stig. Please tell Meester Steeg I will keep my pants on but I am holding my breath again awaiting the latest "avoidance tactic(s)" of his miserable dealer. Not Uruguay, not Paraguay, but Gonaway! Does sound like his best bet is with the regional rep he found. Oh, well.
Karl
Dear Calmer Karl,
OK, I will be phoning Mr. Stone, of Kymco USA, tomorrow. I'm about ready to say, "send me a new throttle body & I will install it and program it into the scoot."
I did not want to argue with the dealer mechanic...but why were they trying to have a phone conversation with somebody at Kymco?
First they were waiting for the part #. That took a week. When I found this out I gave them the part number, a week ago, so they could order it.
All they had to do was order it from Kymco USA. Surely they have a history of ordering parts from them....what is the hold up, now?
I wait a week and they tell me they have "left 5 messages" with no return call. So, the diagnostic tool is still not on the way to my dealer.
I will speak to Mr. Stone, hopefully.
(oh, yes, I am about ready to put back up the 2 youtubes of my "KYMCO scooter dealer not able to fix my bad TPS")
Stig
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Stalling for a number of reasons
1. Don't want to outlay the money for the tool
2. Afraid they can't fix it and have to admit that, not skilled
3. Tired of spending labor on this, getting too expensive
4. Etc
If is is the sensor and the tool would have seen this, all could have been avoided.
Have you bought 2 scooters from this dealer?
What is the Dealers Business Name?
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Would it happen to be one of these?
TOWN-COUNTRY LAWN & GARDEN CENTER
397 BIG KNOB ROAD
ROCHESTER PA 15074
HONDA EAST YAMAHA SUZUKI
1230 CONANT STREET
MAUMEE OH 43537
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When Stig's ready to give out info I'm confident he will. Seems he's right in the middle of things and no reason to yell fire at all. No sense in naming names till the dust settles, things might work out for the best. I'm kind of in the same boat, scoots been at the dealer for a week and no word yet. I've called them twice and no return call. Patience is a virtue huh? This experience with a 6 mo in service scooter w/86 miles on it is very disappointing.
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Stig is a classy guy: Pulled his youtube videos until either the dealer or Kymco could get involved; Has been
the image of patience when the inevitable dealer delaying tactics started; Is still calm enough to give really
good updates. Bernadette Stig was invaluable (means really valuable) in calming me down and cancelling
my trip to his town to dismember the dealer, his tech and anyone within arm's reach. I await Mr. Stone's
response.
Karl
PS: I breathe normally now. Something smells...stale....rotten; could it be.....NO! (pant,pant,pant...)....
Paraphrased from 2010 Space Odyssey
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In general, what is the warranty law situation in the US? In such cases...
How many repair atempts do I have to allow the first dealer under warranty? May I then move to another dealer?
Is there a legal chance for redhibitory actions one day and back out of sales contract? (for major issues) In worst case...
Or a reduction of price? (for minor issues)
Do you also have at least two forms of warranty in the US? The legal warranty by law (implied warranty?) on the one hand and the voluntary warranty from the manufacturer?
What´s the difference in detail?
Might be a bit off topic in this context, but nevertheless interesting.
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what is the warranty law situation in the US
Related discussion (http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=325.0).
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9/11/14
No luck reaching the Kymco rep. on the phone, so sent a long email.
Update on the scooter: I've ridden it quite briskly twice this week to work & back.(in the rain on those nice City Grips)
The scooter runs as sweet as can be.....unless I slow and try to cruise below 30MPH (around 4-5K rpms). Then it bucks and cuts in and out. Unless you tried to cruise down there - you'd never know it had a driveability issue.
Not a hint of anything but perfect running - if I stay away from that slower cruise.
Today is the anniversary of a heck of a bad day.
Was it not?
Stig
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Same problemo, no one seems to know that that throttle body is the friggen problem. Seems everyone is scared to say the truth and the problem is obvious.................done.
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What is the latest from Regional Mr. Stone? Stig and 2wheel have the same problem and hopefully the same dealer. Nah, that would be too easy! Is everyone waiting for the warranties to time out? This reminds me of the Yager the dealer forgot to install the battery clamp and him ignoring me until I jacked up KymcoUSA. Even then he was unresponsive when he sent the right clamp but the wrong screws and I even supplied part numbers!
Karl
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Put 75 mi on the Movie 150 today and I'm a happy camper. Sweet lil ride and everything I expect from a 150cc. Seats an issue but with the gel pad and cover I bought it's acceptable. No more BS, just ride and enjoy. I don't get where the 13hp comes from compared to other 150cc scoots but you definitely notice they're there. Anyone considering a 150cc I would encourage them to try one out..
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Put 75 mi on the Movie 150 today and I'm a happy camper. Sweet lil ride and everything I expect from a 150cc. Seats an issue but with the gel pad and cover I bought it's acceptable. No more BS, just ride and enjoy. I don't get where the 13hp comes from compared to other 150cc scoots but you definitely notice they're there. Anyone considering a 150cc I would encourage them to try one out..
4 valve engine with roller rockers!!!!
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Update Sept 24, 2014:
I will be riding my LIKE 200i across town to the dealer for the service tech to check on Sept 26.
They phoned me to tell me that they have rec'd the KYMCO EFI scanner tool from Kymco USA.
Stig
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Fingers crossed for you sir!
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Update Sept 24, 2014:
I will be riding my LIKE 200i across town to the dealer for the service tech to check on Sept 26.
They phoned me to tell me that they have rec'd the KYMCO EFI scanner tool from Kymco USA.
Stig
Hopefully you're on your way to having the Like fixed and running right. Thanks for keeping us in the loop. I'm curious what they'll find.
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I understand his point on small /air cooled engines.
FI engines rely on engine temp, as much as every other sensor to deliver the correct charge. Riding at speed creates heat, and the ECU delivers more fuel to compensate. When you throttle down you need less fuel but the heat soak effect takes hold, and the ECU continues the rich cycles.
If it happens in a cold/cool engine at initial take off my GUESS is it is a simple harmonic issue where there is an out of balance issue at a particular rpm. All engines have this harmonic issue to some degree.
Just a guess but perhaps an injector one to two sizes up can compensate, and not struggle at this rpm.
I think if it were pump related your problem would be at higher rpm where more fuel is consumed.
That would be my next move... Injector.
What this has to do w/ 7k miles I am un -sure.
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My money is on the TPS sensor, with that you need a new throttle body, ecu and map all in one.
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He already got a whole new bike... Not too much left to do.
Might I suggest selling it. Let the prospect test ride it, and I bet ya, there will be no issues. Maybe you are just "super tuned" to the bike, and something small to anyone else is big to you.
I know... It's not in your mind, and the issue is real. At some point you have to say quit tho.
I know first hand... 5k in a 300.00 scooter. I could still throw another 5-6 hundred at it for another 10MPH, but decided to cut, and run.
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I have seen GLACIERS move faster than this dealer! Stig found that it IS the TPS: it goes to a resistance of practically closed throttle in the 2-3.5k rpm range. Now since the dim-wit dealer has the tool to test such stuff with it remains that he will come to the same conclusion and honor the warranty for Stig. I am beginning to disappear physically from the stress of resisting the urge to get on the DT, go to this dealer and just look to see what a real pin-head looks like.....before I get arrested for trying to strangle him! Would be a nice ride though even if it would be one-way!
Karl
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I haven't heard anyone refer to a "one way ride" since I left NY.
Homesick again...
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I am sure glad that my people gt isnt as sh@tty as my Like was. My cheap chinese scoot had less problems than my Like did.
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NGM, you are getting mighty close to being the recipient of a "one way ride" because of heresy on this forum! I can see all sorts of steam from ears and fire from eyes about casting any doubt on the Like. Poor ole Stig. He rode that LIke rain or shine with camera in hand to show us knuckle-draggers the rest of the world and his reward? An unresponsive dealer and nay-sayers of the model Like. OUR reward is Stig-the-fink ran off and bought a HONDA FORZA!! Oh, the humanity! Oh, well, Kymco did start in 1963 making engine units for Honda so I guess it kinda fits. Psst! Sssst! I'll tell you guys a secret about our Like we traded for wifey's GTi300 after all the dust settles from this deal! I know Stig has been off doing something besides getting riled by this so he should be back in fine form soon and we will know some peace.....
Karl
PS: Zombie, what does NY have anything to do with a "one way ride"? Oh, yeah. I get it: Gotti and Genovese and so on, right?
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Hey Yo!!! There are certain names you don't say out loud... Fo'get abow eet!
Psssst. Yeah!
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Stig,
Any news on your Like?
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What Trout said.....or asked......
Karl
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I had a conversation with the fellow who will actually be checking my LIKE with the scanner.
This is the 4th or 5th time I've described the issue to the service department - the difference this time is the above......
He did ask if the scoot was still under warranty. It is.
This was 9 days ago.
I will give them a couple more days.
This is one of the two videos I took with the scanner....
The figure next to "TPS" is the degree the throttle is opened (from 0.0 at closed throttle). My throttle opens to about 89 degrees. The faulting in the TPS is found no higher than about 9 degrees of throttle opening. So, when the techs go blasting down the road on their test ride, well above 9 degrees of throttle - they are finding nothing but a sweet running scooter!
KYMCO LIKE 200i TPS faults (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rAIORrbbYQ#ws)
Stig
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Could you explain what we saw?
The first thing I check on FI engines is smooth operation of the tps. This is done with the engine off, and the throttle opened manually thru the entire range. The most common fault is a "dead spot" in the TPS from wear, and vibration.
I didn't really understand what we saw in your vid. It appeared the throttle was being held steady (tps reading) but the rpm were all over the place, perhaps indicating a vacuum leak or leaking intake valve.
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With the engine stopped, key on - there is NO issue found (ever) with the TPS as the throttle is slowly advanced.
With the engine on - the engine begins to 'hunt' if the throttle is slowly advanced and/or held steady at around 4000RPM. This is at my "cruising through the State Park" speed of a steady 23-25mph. This is where it first showed up - and basically where it shows up again even after a long high speed run - when I go back into the park and drop down to a steady cruise it will begin to stumble again. It can also show up around 30mph.
At least a few 1000 miles of that 7000 miles were done in that State Park.
My contention, with the scanner as proof, is that the TPS is worn out and failing right in that area of throttle advance. I could sell this scooter to a guy who would think he has a dreamy running scooter - unless he visited a park or a cemetery, or cruised his neighborhood streets.
WOT is great.
Idle is great.
Starting is quick and flawless.
Moderate acceleration is great.
Hardest acceleration is great.
55MPH cruise is great.
40MPH is great.
20-25MPH has issues.
The Kymco rep said the KYMCO EFI scanner is needed to find not the static test faults - but the actual throttle response of a running engine. And that finding no CELP codes is not unusual.
Obviously I am not going to persue this a great while longer. If the dealer tech cannot find an issue - and if KYMCO USA will not send a new throttle body as a warranty repair....I am not going to buy one. I'll keep the scoot till spring - keep it serviced in top shape, per usual - then sell it.
I'd be happy if they found anything wrong with the scooter. So far they say it's a wonder of German engineering and that it is a very clean scooter with a goofy looking seat and mirrors! (I have the orig. mirrors and seat for the new owner)
I agree.
Stig
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That all makes sense except for a suspected faulty TPS. The scanner showed it holding steady voltage.
Hunting is a good word for what we heard. It COULD be the sensors are conflicting, and the ECU is "hunting" for the solution.
I'd like to see what the O2 sensor is reporting. That will tell more, ie: lean to rich spikes ect.
Has anyone had the head off to check for a leaking intake valve?
That's what it sounds like to me.
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Great report, Stig! I am happy to see your video of the machine in action. Either way, the fault in my opinion is in the "Everything ECU, TPS, MAP & ISC" box. The voltage output of the TPS is varying while it should be steady(you obviously know that). That is either a function of the TPS or the 5 v supplied by the ECU. The resistance of the TPS apparently is NOT changing since it is steady with the engine off. The key is the vibration when the engine is running. You know what I'm gonna say next, dontcha? It is way past high time the dealer gets off his can and takes care of this little problem. It should not cost him a dime if he fills out the paperwork to KYMCOUSA properly.
Karl
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Great report, Stig! I am happy to see your video of the machine in action. Either way, the fault in my opinion is in the "Everything ECU, TPS, MAP & ISC" box. The voltage output of the TPS is varying while it should be steady(you obviously know that). That is either a function of the TPS or the 5 v supplied by the ECU. The resistance off the TPS apparently is NOT changing since it is steady with the engine off. The key is the vibration when the engine is running. You know what I'm gonna say next, dontcha? It is way past high time the dealer gets off his can and takes care of this little problem. It should not cost him a dime if he fills out the paperwork to KYMCOUSA properly.
Karl
Karl, phoned the dealer this morning.
Service manager called the Kymco rep last week.
No reply yet.(weds Oct 8 )
Last I heard the fellow working on my scooter was at least considering putting in a warranty request for a new throttle body. I will try to check with Kymco rep. to see what dealer said to him, and where I stand now.
Stig/Tom
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From my experience working with Kymco, they are very open to warranty fixes. This is the dealer copping out. I'm sorry to hear about this, and wish you were closer because we could hook you up. They are "considering" submitting a claim?!??? Wtf, meaning they haven't yet...... Just sad.
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Sounds like progress, Stig! However slow it seems like progress. I, too, wish you were closer to B & L so some kind of action could have been taken before now. I await any word ya got!
Karl
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Stig,
I'll put my $.02 worth in and shutup. I know this has to be a PITA to deal with. Having had 3 warranty repairs (2 batteries and an oil seal) I can say my dealer had no issues with filing claims with Kymco and resolving the issues in an efficient manner. The only delay was due to a seal that was out of stock. It took about 10 days to arrive. I believe the problem lies with your dealer. Dealers agree to charge distributors a reduced rate for their service on warranty work. If the service bay is inexperienced on Kymco's it could cost the dealer $ on a already tight revenue stream.
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Goofed off riding too much after work because it was such a great sunny afternoon (with rain in the forecast until April it seems) ....too late to call Kymco HQ by the time I got home.....
but to add some lightness to this situation:
Did some pinstriping on the ol' Forza and a used some of that magic Super Glaze Wax Shop stuff.....
Stig
(http://i59.tinypic.com/qo66pc.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/r1gar8.jpg)
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How many miles on the Honda?
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How many miles on the Honda?
Yes,
I was thinking about this yesterday as I looked down at the odometer on the Honda.
I've done nearly 2000 miles of riding while I wait on the verdict with the LIKE.
Admittedly - I ride a much larger circuit on higher speed roads now with this bigger scooter.
I just was not comfortable riding over 40MPH on the LIKE - perhaps because I was perched so high on that rebuilt seat.
High seat + short wheelbase + light weight = .... :-\
Several Forza owners have commented on its stability & balance - the seat is too low for my taste (28") but you really do sit down in this longer and heavier scooter. The motorcycle-like handlebars are easy to set for a comfortable riding position...and of course the weight and length make for a much smoother ride over the same roads that tossed me about on my LIKE.
Still, I miss riding the LIKE in town.....squirts through traffic, light & powerful brakes - good tires in the wet (like today's rain ride to work and back - had to hammer the Forza's Dunlops in the rain at one of those lights too close turning yellow but too far to get through the red. The big scoot stopped quick & hard with no drama.)
I purchased the LIKE thinking I could do country road rides (NO highways!) - but for whatever reasons - I was not comfortable out there on those roads, so stayed on 35mph or less streets.
The Honda is a better choice for rural Ohio (for me) ....and I'm getting used to its looks.
Will try Kymco Rep. again tomorrow.
Stig
(http://i59.tinypic.com/nnjeyw.jpg)
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They remind me of Oscar, and Felix. Nice pair Stig!
Ps... I would stop using that wax. I think it might be radioactive.
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Nice pair in your stable. What speeds are you riding the Honda at? it looks like it's going fast just parked.
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Nice pair in your stable. What speeds are you riding the Honda at? it looks like it's going fast just parked.
Not much faster than I rode the LIKE....it's not the engine that limits me (though the wheelbase, weight and tire size are factors)....probably has more to do with my comfort zones.
Obviously I'm more comfortable on a bigger scooter and can comfortably go 50-55 if I have to - or more to get myself out of the way - they say this Forza can cruise comfortably at 70, or even a bit more. But I'll never find out.
It's not the scoot. My kids will tell you I never go the speed limit on the highway either. Which is 70MPH here.
Stig
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(After a message from the Kymco USA rep. late last week - hoping for some confirmed good news re. my LIKE this week. !) No one's talking to me, yet - but the report is the dealer & KYMCO are talking to each other.
I think this engine trouble started on July 4th (2014) an hour into my morning ride....after which I headed straight home.
And I reported it on July 5th.
Stig
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Yeah, 5 July. Let's see: July, August, September and now it is 13 October. A good, solid FOUR MONTHS that your dealer and your regional rep have dragged their collective feet on this problem. This would be really tough on someone that had banked on Kymco reliability, reputation and 2-year warranty for work transportation. Let's hope they are talking to each other with some positive results.
Karl
PS: You are truly a classy, patient guy, Stig!
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This is just sad......... :( that dealer it's straight up retarded or lazy, how hard is it to look at the scan tool and see the tps jump, which i clearly saw on your video and which i would say is the cause. Have you emailed the kymco rep those videos? I would push that on them. And if the dealer gives you any more answers like "we sent in the request" it's BULLsh**!!!! To highlight how bullsh** it is, I have a customer that purchased a Compago 110i (same efi setup as the like). She has had it throwing codes, temp sensor malfunction and charging system malfunction. Talked to my guy Chip at Kymco (their best tech there and also a funny and helpful dude) and replaced her temp sensor under warranty. The codes came back on her after a few weeks. Talked to Chip and told him I believe it's the ecu "thinking" there's a problem and he was totally fine with replacing the ecu/throttle body under warranty, all i had to do was tel him what I thought the problem was, may fix it may not. So i ordered the part and filed a claim on their online warranty system. The point of this story is to highlight that Kymco is ok to warranty parts that the tech thinks are bad. The problem, and what i suspect your dealer is trying to avoid, is that kymco does not just pay the dealer or ship free parts. We have to order parts, get billed for it, take shop time etc. Then warranty claims get paid on a quarterly basis so it takes months to get paid. We are ok with that because we actually care about customers scooters. Maybe your dealer is trying to wait out your warranty? Which is illegal. Anyway, if i owned the shop i work at i would go as far as ordering and filling you the warranty claim on the video basis alone, but my boss wouldn't go for that haha. You can use me as a reference in talking with kymco directly and let them know what I've said etc. They do have the ability to warranty parts directly to the customer but really never do that, good luck Stig.
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This is just sad......... They do have the ability to warranty parts directly to the customer but really never do that, good luck Stig.
Well Crapp, I googled up a map to see if Oregon is in the USA....it is. But dayem, it's all up hill from Ohio!
Even though it's only about 4" on my 17" monitor....and I love my LIKE200eye... I ain't pushin it that far for service!
You know, I did give the KYMCO fellow a link to the video in my first email contact with KYMCO USA.
The email was forwarded to my friendly rep (he only got a little testy with me once - I think he was upset that I refuse to leave messages on his always 'away' phone...so I emailed KYMCO again - since that worked so well the 1st time!)
He did not look at the video - just said that he was 'sorry' that I had posted it on youtube (I'm not savy enough to know how to send videos - and amazed myself that I got it from my phone to youtube! I put it there to get help from you guys, after striking out at the dealer)
And in my last email I suggested that he just send the throttle body to me, because: I have 7000 miles experience with this scoot. I know it is not running right. I don't really want to pay the dealer to take any more WOT test rides that will not uncover the problem. And, I have a KYMCO scanner - and they can't seem to find the time to order one.
I really do love that little scooter....I keep it so clean the tech. doing the write up at the dealer thought it was new, until he saw the odometer....then asked if it was under warranty with that many miles. "Sure, several more months."
Not to beat a dead squirrel....but, a big reason I went with a Honda to get me back on the road was because there are 3 or 4 Honda dealers around me (there are less than 50 Level 5 Honda Powerhouse dealerships in the USA....2 of them are 1/2 hour from me). I can walk in there and talk Forza valve shims with the service dept. and he has them on a shelf. (Remember, my Kymco dealer had never done a valve adjustment on a LIKE and they had been selling them for a couple of years. $372 for the 600 mile service.)
My dealer had Friendly folks for the sales.....friendly at the parts and service desks. But they did not have the Kymco 'program' in their 'system' ..."but the boss will be getting it in there soon." Friendly - but they didn't have anything, and couldn't get me anything for my Kymco. So I got my OEM accessories from that neat little scooter shop in Texas.
My 'take away' from all of this is:
1) Kymco makes a pretty good scooter and several of its models are bargains.
2) The local dealer support might just be more important than the brand of scooter. (Genuine, SYM, Kymco, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki....whatever)
3) I did not know this when I walked in and saw new scooters for sale at my local 2-wheel dealer.
I will report .......
Stig
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That Forza is a good looking motorcycle. I do not consider that to be a scooter. Nice looking Forza. I wish I could do things different from the git go for the money I've spent. About 3k. But I am very pleased with the movie 150. I smile every time I get on it.
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That Forza is a good looking motorcycle. I do not consider that to be a scooter. Nice looking Forza. I wish I could do things different from the git go for the money I've spent. About 3k. But I am very pleased with the movie 150. I smile every time I get on it.
That my friend -- is the important thing!
I used to do the same climbing on my LIKE200i every morning that it wasn't snowing,!
Stig
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Oct 22, 2014
I phoned my dealer today to "ask how my Kymco repair is coming." I mentioned that in my last conversation with KYMCO USA I was told that the dealer was ordering a new throttle body for my scooter.
The dealer's service tech explained that they have obtained a new throttle body to install on my scooter, "but" they discovered they will need to "order a seal".
The service tech said he will move the "order for the seal" to the top of his to-do stack, and the service department will call me when they have it.
I looked at the instructions for installing a throttle body in my cyclepedia manual....and looked at the exploded parts drawing for the throttle body.....
Not sure what seal they are talking about....Maybe when you order a throttle body from KYMCO USA you get a bag of loose parts......but they'll get it sorted, I'm sure.
Was thinking about swinging by the dealer on my H_NDA and adding a little Stabil to the LIKE's tank.
2117 miles logged on my H_NDA, so far.
Stig
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What the hell. That is BULLsh** and they are 100% stalling because I'm sure they didn't order the throttle body. I say take a trip up there and have them show you the throttle body they "have".
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What the hell. That is BULLsh** and they are 100% stalling because I'm sure they didn't order the throttle body. I say take a trip up there and have them show you the throttle body they "have".
B&L,
I hear you.
But I am not certain that challenging the dealer mechanics (underpaid & underappreciated, I'm sure) to an embarrassing moment on the shop floor is the best way to get my scooter repaired and back into my garage, safely.
I think I am chalking this up to another of those important Life Lessons.
To wit: Buy a good scooter, with a good warranty & an 800# - with good parts availability, and is not too hard to repair....yourself.
My LIKE200iLX fits that bill.
The only hiccup I ran into was that KYMCO USA was (understandably) not too keen on sending ME a free $220 throttle body.....they wanted a Kymco dealer to ask for it. It was at that point that sand got into the mechanism.
We're all good now.....the boys are back on the case.
What was the question again, and who moved my cheese?
Stig
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POS China Bike... Kymco Hates us.
One more time. I just like the pict...
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Naw,
But here's a bunch of Kymco owners getting together in the U.K. for a little jam.
They're harmless and having fun - as only 50cc riders can do!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y6smkh6c-0&feature=player_detailpage&list=RDghb6eDopW8I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y6smkh6c-0&feature=player_detailpage&list=RDghb6eDopW8I)
Life's too short to sweat the small stuff...
Stig
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The Vid. is playing while I post... How The Hell did you EVER find "Sw. House Mafia"?
I never figured you for an "Electronica" kinda guy. How 'bout NIN? Better get a dollar from mommy... There's BAD words here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHpRe0rRe0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHpRe0rRe0)
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Placing pix here in this aging thread, for interest sake....
Is that Mars out there?(http://i57.tinypic.com/29gorch.jpg)
Swung by my dealer to get some H_nda oil and ask politely about the status of my Kymco.
Made sure I had the oil with me before approaching the service desk guy - so he wouldn't think I was just stopping by to nag him. "See, I got oil hIere...!"
I said, "Good morning, just checking to see how things are going with my KYMCO scooter."
He said, "Oh, yeah, the guy that goes 20 miles per hour....."
He assured me they do have the new "$300 throttle body....just waiting on the $8 seal."
I mentioned that while looking at the exploded parts pix I was not certain what seal he was talking about, re. the throttle body?
He said to ask the parts dept., "they order the parts."
We agreed to keep in touch.....
But, happily I did get to sit on the very nice 2015 CB300F, naked bike. I really like the "up" bars on this and esp. the sticker price of $3999.00 (http://i59.tinypic.com/b8vbrn.jpg)
& finally, here is a picture that always makes me smile: this is the 71st Evac Hosp., Pleiku, S.Vietnam, (II Corps, Central Highlands,1969). This fellow is chilling & reading a letter from home...which seems OK, except note that the dust-off Huey is being pre-flighted right next to him in the revetment. Maybe his ears were damaged, as well as his legs. (http://i62.tinypic.com/2dhdxko.png)
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How can you see the road with the tank blocking your view on that cbr300?
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They make them that way so if you head on something... you will be thrown well above, and away from that object. Unless it happens to be a 2 story wall. Thus the "Limited warranty".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn9ZMbSjmVY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn9ZMbSjmVY)
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I have been out of the house for over a week and now just "catching up" with this, horrible event as it drags on.....I have been VERY good at NOT riding to Springfield and choking some dealer and his minions within an inch, so to speak. I have been VERY good at NOT phoning the dealer and raving and ranting at what a putz he is, his tech is and his parents and probably his kids. I have been VERY good at NOT calling KymcoUS and raving to them for not making things happen. Stig is a nice guy and deserves to have this problem solved in his favor RIGHT NOW, for cryin' out loud. Stig is exercising good judgement for being diplomatic so not to have the tech take out his embarrassment on Stig's scoot. Yeah, I've been so VERY good my stomach is in knots watching this unfold. I have seen grass grow faster. Heck, I have seen TREES grow faster. No good deed goes unpunished......
Karl
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I am still being good....it hasn't been easy.....
Karl
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Here's a thought. Why not rally behind Stig and each of the members here contact Kymco USA and demand action.
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Here's a thought. Why not rally behind Stig and each of the members here contact Kymco USA and demand action.
Got excited when I saw a new post -thought something had moved re. my scoot!
OK, well I visited them on the 27th. They are waiting for a seal before they can install the throttle body.
I think I will phone the parts dept. tomorrow and see how we're doing on that part.
I was in a pretty expansive mood on the 27th after a nice long scooterin ride and 3 coffees at the Dog, the Goat & Dino's. If that seal is some kind of a weird part - it might be coming from the far Pacific. 'B & L' might know how long that takes. I don't.
Getting pretty sporty here in the mornings, but hope to visit my village again this long holiday w/e (used a little comp. time and I don't do squat on 11/11)
Sure do miss that scooter.
Stig
(http://i60.tinypic.com/vmzqef.jpg)
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Well, shortly after posting the above...the dealer tech. called to say that they "have thoroughly tested my scooter at all speeds, including a 20mph cruise, and it is running perfectly!"
This is not what I wanted to hear - so, I asked him "You installed the new throttle body and seal ....and it is running perfectly at all speeds now?"
He said, "Yes!"
OK, I will go and pick it up ASAP in the next couple of days....weather notwithstanding.
Well, well.
I will give a full report when I get my scooter home.
(It has never been under anyone's wrench but mine. I will pull the seat bucket and have a look.)
Stig
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Did you make a secret mark or photo the numbers on the throttle body to ensure they actually did change it? I took apart a throttle body the other day and they might have been talking about the seal that goes i in the intake spacer idk.
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That is great to hear, Stig! But your satisfactory test is more important in that you know what you are looking for and they did not take the time to LISTEN TO YOU! I guess I can rest easier now to see what you say after YOUR test. Whew! What a process!
Karl
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Stig,
I'll keep my fingers crossed you're scooter is running the way you know it should run.
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Did you make a secret mark or photo the numbers on the throttle body to ensure they actually did change it? I took apart a throttle body the other day and they might have been talking about the seal that goes i in the intake spacer idk.
Yes, I have a few pix of the engine....
I sure hope I see a new throttle body under that seat!
Stig
(http://i60.tinypic.com/kf4cjp.jpg)
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My little repaired heart will be running on full bore 'til you give us the full report on your Like. I hope it meets your expectations. You have been MORE than patient with these guys! Good Luck. ;) ;) ;)
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See the yellow goo on the back of the ecu, it looks baked kinda with a dark brown hue. New one should be nice and yellow real pretty like if they're using the same color goo. Almost seems like it got too hot[?]..........one of my peeves was in the future having to replace that TB when just one thing goes wrong with it. TPS sensor on a car usually runs $30 to $40. 1 other peeve I would not have been able to ride at all this year if I had to wait on kymco's warranty response. Most ECUs on cars are mounted away from heat sources for reasons of heat failure early on in the 80's.
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See the yellow goo on the back of the ecu, it looks baked kinda with a dark brown hue. New one should be nice and yellow real pretty like if they're using the same color goo. Almost seems like it got too hot[?]..........one of my peeves was in the future having to replace that TB when just one thing goes wrong with it. TPS sensor on a car usually runs $30 to $40. 1 other peeve I would not have been able to ride at all this year if I had to wait on kymco's warranty response. Most ECUs on cars are mounted away from heat sources for reasons of heat failure early on in the 80's.
Mine has been this color since I first opened the seat bucket from new.
Aways wondered what that stuff was.
And, yes, I would have nearly 10,000 miles (approaching 3000 on my H_nda) on my LIKE if it had been a quick turn around at the dealer.
Took forever for them to get a scanner, find the issue and get the parts - and put them in.
Blame myself for some of this - I should have refused to bring it home after the 1st time I took it in & they said they couln't find anything. (toying with the idea of asking them for my $57 back in store credit for that first visit)
Hope to pick it up this afternoon.
Stig
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I had to wait on kymco's warranty response.
This is my issue considering future purchases, response time and lack of actions by the dealer and Kymco should give anyone pause.
That being said the issue does not appear to be with Kymco Inc and realize they have only so much they can do with a dealer especially since they need a dealer network, Kymco Inc, may bite their tongues somewhat.
I would guess all Kymco Inc. can do is influence and make strong suggestions with their dealers.........other than that, bring on the death penalty and find a New dealer and that is probably hard to do and not the best solution in most cases.
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Running issue solved!
My scooter's throttle position sensor failed on July 4 (or 5th, can't remember) 2014.
Scoot went in for a 2nd dealer attempt to fix on Sept 26th.
Today, Nov 8th, I picked it up from the dealer and rode it for an hour, at all speeds.
The scooter is working perfectly again.
The dealer obtained these parts from KYMCO USA, and installed them:
1 Module ASSY ECU
1 Seal THROTTLE ECU
All work (this time) was carried out under warranty, no charge. The parts are new & confirmed by eye-balling them and comparing with photos of the orig. parts.
I noted that they did use fully a half tank of gas while they had it (I filled it a few hundred yards down the street before giving it to them) - so they did give it some thorough bench & road testing.
I must say that once KYMCO USA was brought into the picture - for the most part they did do all I could ask to get my scooter fixed.
I'll run it a few more days, and if all is well, I'll give the area KYMCO service rep. a big thank you for his intervention.
This LIKE200i is a very peppy scooter on city streets.
The EFI fires my scoot in all kinds of weather and temps and has never left me stranded in 7000 miles.
The brakes are superb.
I've no complaints with the build quality of the body or engine....though I did quickly upgrade the tires to Michelin City Grips. I would recommend staying with OEM Kymco parts for their quality.
The scooter is, I think, very easy to service (spark plug, valves, injector, coil, fuel pump, belt, clutch, rollers, engine & gear oil changes, brakes, bulbs, switches)
Only after putting nearly 3000 miles on a longer, heavier, more powerful scooter with larger tires and twin headlights did I become so aware of the limitations of the LIKE. The harsher ride quality differences are due I think to it's wheelbase, weight, engine & tire size and lighting.
I think it provides very good value for about $2500 OTD. Before I'd spend very much more than that - I'd be looking at bigger, new/left-over or lightly used larger scooters. My impression is that Kymco makes quality scooters.
I am happy to have this LIKE back running well & in the garage!(http://i57.tinypic.com/v3ixio.jpg)
{It all seems like too many words for a simple fix. Thanks for all the support from so many members!!}
Stig
PS: Karl, I will get your scanner in the mail ASAP..... I'm going to run the scoot a few more days - but I'm not going to test it with the scanner if all seems good. Then I'll return it with some nice donuts taped to it , or something, for your kindness.)
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Oh, I am SOOOO glad this finally turned out well! Words really fail me at this point....never seem to be at a loss for words or opinions but I am now. You gotta be the most patient man I have ever sorta met! You have made the same conclusions about the Like as I have, good and not so good. It IS a great value for the money but I get it about the comparison to the Forza, or in my case the DT. Whole different world, ain't it? The Like fills a niche, is way better than a Buddy 150 but is kinda in the same class in spite of the bigger wheels and longer wheelbase. I am really happy for ya and hope NO BODY has to go through what you did with your dealer. If you are gonna send donuts, I really like creullers! Or however it is spelled!
Karl
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Congrats Stig! Good to hear that there is a happy end after 4 month of....
But what exactely has this "professional motorcycle company" in springfield really done/changed?
Did they really change the whole throttlebody/ecu assy?
According to your parts list it looks like they only changed the ECU alone. Therefore the mysterious seal. Because of course there is a seal between throtttlebody and ECU.
Have you checked the engraved numbers on the throttle body as well, or only the number of the ECU?
The reason for my question is that I still don´t know, if the thottlebody assy was one whole unit sold with the ECU or if it could be ordered/sold/repaired separetely.
And did you ask for and get your $57 back for that senseless and useless mechanics testride at the first "professional attempt"?
Have you received at least an apologize from your dealer/tech?
Hope that any further (test)rides will go flawlessly and you will have much fun again with your Chinese Swiss BMW. ;) :)
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Congrats on getting it fixed. You going to keep her or sell it?
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Great to hear that your Like is back to health! A big WOOHOO to yah. ;D ;D ;D
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Congrats Stig! Good to hear that there is a happy end after 4 month of....
But what exactely has this "professional motorcycle company" in springfield really done/changed?
Did they really change the whole throttlebody/ecu assy?
According to your parts list it looks like they only changed the ECU alone. Therefore the mysterious seal. Because of course there is a seal between throtttlebody and ECU.
Have you checked the engraved numbers on the throttle body as well, or only the number of the ECU?
The reason for my question is that I still don´t know, if the thottlebody assy was one whole unit sold with the ECU or if it could be ordered/sold/repaired separetely.
And did you ask for and get your $57 back for that senseless and useless mechanics testride at the first "professional attempt"?
Have you received at least an apologize from your dealer/tech?
Hope that any further (test)rides will go flawlessly and you will have much fun again with your Chinese Swiss BMW. ;) :)
The ecu can only be ordered as a complete unit with the throttle body.
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I hear you B&L. I still just wonder about the mysterious seal like Stig did. But if you were so sure about the complete unit, then you are for sure able to also explain the still mysterious seal. If you can, pls do it.
I am 100% aware of the fact that an end consumer has to order the whole unit for the sake of moneymaking. But I am still not sure nor convinced, that a dealers service dep. has also to order the whole unit from the main importer.... Maybe they are able to order the ecu alone and attach it to the old throttlebody (with a new seal in between). And I see no good technical reason why this wouldn´t be possible.
I could also give a number of examples exacetly for that issue from other professions spare parts aereas. It´s all a sort of economic gameplaying...
Thats why I asked. Unfortunately Stig didn´t or didn´t want to ask - so far. ECU and Throttlebody have each a seperate Number engraved or printed on.
This question is especially interesting beyond the warranty time for end consumers.
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I work at a dealer and have direct access to KymcoUSA parts account, I can assure you they are NOT order-able separate, only as one "throttle body assy". Most likely the gasket they were waiting for was the o-ring that seals the intake manifold to the cylinder head. Or the MOST likely was that they didn't order the throttle body right away and were buying time saying that "we need to order an o-ring".
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Stig,
So glad to read your Like troubles have been resolved. Happy riding Stigmeister.
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I work at a dealer and have direct access to KymcoUSA parts account, I can assure you they are NOT order-able separate, only as one "throttle body assy". Most likely the gasket they were waiting for was the o-ring that seals the intake manifold to the cylinder head. Or the MOST likely was that they didn't order the throttle body right away and were buying time saying that "we need to order an o-ring".
The part number listed on my copy of the completed warranty work order for the "SEAL Throttle ECU" is: 91302-LEB2-900
This # was not found in my searches - but 91302 are prefexes for various Kymco 0-Rings.
I say again - the parts in my scooter are new.
I have ridden it 3 times for 30 -45 mins and it is running fine.
Commuted to work at 35 Degrees Fahrenheit today - no issues. Glad to have that large lighted top case (Bestem 929) and Kymco's largish tail light behind me on these dark and cold mornings. Always thought the headlight was quite adequate for my night commute to work - but the twin headlights of the Forza are obviously much better for seeing the road. Some bikes have a pair of headlights - with one being the driving light and the other can be added for "brights". This Forza runs with 2 driving lights - both of which can be "brighted".
Plan to keep the LIKE until deciding something in the spring of 2015.
Thanks for the patience of all who have followed this Italian Soap Opera.
Ride safe out there.
Stig
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Stig, B&L - thanks for clarification. :)
Have fun and ride safe!
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One of the cool things Kymco USA does is they provide the customer the ability to look up parts on the same parts order program as a dealer does.
Go to Kymcousa.com, lower left you will see a parts Icon. Click that and it will take you to Kymco Eparts. look up your year and model by clicking on search by step, use the drop down boxes to select scooter, cc and model. If your 2014 model is not listed, click on the newest year your model is listed. fill in the 3 drop downs and it will take you to the microfiche. Simple
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Thanks souzamoto.
So, if I want to order the ECU separately (3920A-LGS6-E10) and the ECU/Throttlebody seal separately (91302-LEB2-900) according to that Kymco microfiche parts number list,
will I or a dealer get it?
If not, why not?
Let´s see how simple it really gets. :)
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I couldn't locate the parts icon....
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Obove the Owner´s Manual Section there is a tiny tiny little Icon.... Wonder why they didn´t program it even more smaller...
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They do list the parts, but it still is NOT AVAILABLE SEPARATELY!!!!!!! look over where you can enter qty, it's blanked out, that means its not an orderable part. Trust me on this one i have ordered parts from Kymco for 6 years.
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Obove the Owner´s Manual Section there is a tiny tiny little Icon.... Wonder why they didn´t program it even more smaller...
Got it! Thank you
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They do list the parts, but it still is NOT AVAILABLE SEPARATELY!!!!!!! look over where you can enter qty, it's blanked out, that means its not an orderable part. Trust me on this one i have ordered parts from Kymco for 6 years.
Are you really/ really sure? What if you asked them Pretty Please? I bet they would sell it to us then. If not... Why???????????????? :o
Good Days for you Stig! I'm happy to hear your happy.