KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mr. Paul on May 08, 2017, 01:09:41 AM
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My 93 Helix, which is a wonderful machine, has an intermittent problem I cannot seem to get diagnosed. I ride this bike as a commuter so it is ridden practically every day. Sometimes when I start, and other times while I am riding, the scooter will loose about 20% of its power. After a while the power will suddenly come back to 100% and stay that way and sometimes will cut back again. As I have stated, it is intermittent so there is no pattern to it. It does not seem to run rough. Just loss of power. I have loosened my fuel cap, changed and checked the spark plug, changed the fuel filter, checked the fuel lines, inspected my air filter and "puke tube." It starts easily every time and does not smoke or use oil. The idle is smooth and even. When it cuts in and out, it is abrupt and very apparent. It will still cruise at speed but when the power is down, it really slows the acceleration and hill climbing. Any ideas anyone? I do not want to start throwing unnecessary parts at this thing.
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One troubleshooting technique is placing an ice pack against the CDI . . to diagnose a potential heat related deficiency.
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Might want to try the folk on: The Honda Helix Discussion Board
http://www.slonaker.net/helixforum/viewforum.php?f=4 (http://www.slonaker.net/helixforum/viewforum.php?f=4)
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Might want to try the folk on: The Honda Helix Discussion Board
http://www.slonaker.net/helixforum/viewforum.php?f=4 (http://www.slonaker.net/helixforum/viewforum.php?f=4)
I just did thanks but this is the best group of folks on the net!
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I miss my Helix. Not sure if the something like the carburetor could be an issue or CDI as also suggested.
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With a carb there is the CDI and auto choke of some kind. Like mentioned by techs smarter than me, I vote for those two. Methinks the ice pack on the CDI is a good start but the auto choke, if by starter type, would be first on my list. An intermittent electrical contact could produce your symptoms.
Karl
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Good options presented...
IMO, need more information to diagnose, which is why throwing parts at a problem is frequently the best option compared to prolonged labor.
At what temp/runtime does this occur ?
If it is a heat related problem, an electronic problem could be rearing it's ugly head, or a vacuum leak could be growing.
Especially considering age of the machine... ( I do have an 87 Helix).
There could be debris floating around in the carb bowl, grit or wear on the CV slide, a brittle or defective gasket affecting vacuum circuits for the CV operation.
The icepak idea is Really kool ! If you only had one handy, could hop off, get inside the box to apply it, and continue the run to see if the prob continued. :-)
I don't see a silver bullet here.
Dreary maintenance and parts replacement is probably on the horizon if it is not accommodating enough to get worse and be easily identified !
Not yet mentioned, it could be float bowl adjustment, or a degenerating spark plug wire.
Best
redk
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Not this guy, Red!
Karl
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As mentioned by red, could be a misfiring plug. Also water in the fuel?? Water can get in the fuel filter, new or old, and form a dam that the fuel cannot pass thru easlily. After engine is shut off, the water drains back enough for the fuel to get thru, until enough vibration causes the water, which is much thicker than gas, to form another blockage. This may not seem logical but I've seen it happen more than once. There is a product, I think it's called HEAT, that will break the water down and cause it to go on thru the filter. Also, Karl's thoughts on fuel tank ventilation could be a factor. All an engine needs to run is fuel, air, and spark at the proper timing, so your problem lies some where in that. Not much help, I know. I wish you luck.The Helix 250 is a fine scooter.Let us know what the verdict is.
Mac
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Thanks everyone for the responses! There is absolutely no pattern to when the problem occurs. Will look at auto-choke, will pull and service carb and replace float, and tap tap the cdi to test. I have a multi tester so I will go on Youtube to find how I can use the thing to diagnose the electronic items. It will take me a couple of weeks to track it down, life has me real busy these days. As soon as I find the problem, I will let y'all know. Thanks again..Paul
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Hopefully it's a quick/simple fix, intermittent problems are a pain especially if you don't have a way to duplicate them.
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Small crack in intake boot?
Boot loose?
Soviets again.......?
I got nothin here...
Stig
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Another great source of information is the Honda Elite 250 Yahoo group. The Helix has the same motor as the Elite 250, so mechanically, they are identical to diagnose. I used to be a follower/contributor there for several years before I sold my Elite 250 a couple of years ago. Great group of folks over there.
As already mentioned, besides a good cleaning of the carb, I would take a close look at the intake boot. Those are notorious for dry rotting and getting brittle as they get older and exposed to high temps. Since your bike is almost 25 years old, a vacuum leak at the intake boot is a distinct possibility.
Might want to try the folk on: The Honda Helix Discussion Board
http://www.slonaker.net/helixforum/viewforum.php?f=4 (http://www.slonaker.net/helixforum/viewforum.php?f=4)
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Not this guy, Red!
Karl
:-)
redk
Mr Paul... It should not be necessary to replace the float... test it when removed by holding with a pair of pliers and dunking in a small container of really hot water. If there is a leak in it, there will be bubbles coming from that spot, which most likely may be repaired.
Yet if it does have a leak in it, if inspected shortly after removal from service, you would be able to notice liquid within it's hollow body, by shaking ??
Gosh it will be fun to see this one resolved !
:-)
redk
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Small crack in intake boot?
Boot loose?
Soviets again.......?
I got nothin here...
Stig
I replaced the boot when I got the scooter last August. When I pull the carb, I am going to put a new one one just because. I suspect Putin may be behind this.
My scooter has been hacked!
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dirt in carb drain or clean your carb
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Thanks everyone for the replies. I really, really appreciate the feedback. I have the problem solved. The carb jets were clean, the fuel flow seemed good, the manifold was not leaking. I checked the plug. It was in good shape, except it was white. It wasn't white before, but I just changed to a non-iridium. I checked the fuel mixture screw. It was turned almost all the way towards lean! I backed it up 2 1/2 turns and all is good now. :) :) :) Now that I know, I feel as if I should have known. I think.
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Cannot argue with success, Mr. Paul, but idle mix screw affecting beyond idle throttle seems illogical (Spock again!).
Karl
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Cannot argue with success, Mr. Paul, but idle mix screw affecting beyond idle throttle seems illogical (Spock again!).
Karl
Darnit Jim, I'm a scooterist, not a doctor ;D Gimme some feedback here Karl; The idle screw on the Helix controls how much fuel goes into the intake during low speed operation but, being independent of the enrichment circuit, does not cut fuel to this port during high speed. Therefore, the high speed operation of the engine relies on the assistance of the low speed idle system to add to the overall enrichment of the combustible mixture. If you cut the fuel to the low speed system, it would be logical to assume that fuel is also cut to the final combustible product at high rpms.
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I checked the fuel mixture screw. It was turned almost all the way towards lean! I backed it up 2 1/2 turns and all is good now.
Somewhat odd how the pilot/low-speed mixture screw would effect what was described as a mid-range issue?
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I gotta admit there IS some overlap in the idle and run circuits.......
Karl
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Karl, on the Helix the idle port does not shut off when the high and mid kicks in. It continues to add fuel to the mix. Seems like to restrict the port, would be to restrict the fuel added to the mix at all speeds. I will definitely keep an eye on it. Going to ride it some then pull the plug to verify. I respect your opinions so I am still leaving the option open that I could very well be wrong. Right now it is running great.
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Wait til I post my diagnosis boo-boo's on another single cylinder engine! You'll never speak to me again!
Karl
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Wait til I post my diagnosis boo-boo's on another single cylinder engine! You'll never speak to me again!
Karl
I will always speak to you Karl, no matter what. Just remember that I am 100% correct, 60% of the time. You have forgotten more than I know. (Hats a compliment)
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Aw, you say that to all the girls! Except Nireen!
Karl
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Aw, you say that to all the girls! Except Nireen!
Karl
Shhh. She might be eadingrae this.
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Had similar isses with my Bajaj Chetak
Turned out to be the plug wire
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
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Wait til I post my diagnosis boo-boo's on another single cylinder engine! You'll never speak to me again!
Karl
Boo-boos ?
I've made a few.
Actually, too many to mention.
1 example only.
Many years ago a friend was upset his car just wouldn't go... it started quickly, never let him down, but had very little power going down the road.
I drove it, and could not see anything wrong, either.
I suggested the transmission could be bad, which he refused to accept, mostly because of the expense.
That night, a competent mechanic visited, and we went out to look at the car.
Lifted the hood, started the engine, and it lit up like a Christmas tree in the engine compartment !
Bad sparkplug wires.
Mea culpa.
redk
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If you suspect Putin, just check with Trump. All the democrats will tell you, they are in kahoots..
hee hee.
Mac.......didn't say it
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Just a stab in the dark, but two possibilities:
1. I had a big Suzuki road bike that behaved like that and the problem was the ignition coils.
2. Another big road bike, a Yamaha, had a fuel line running from the tank to the carbs that was exposed to engine heat. At a certain temperature, the line would kink resulting in reduced power.
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Update; After "fixing" my problem with a carb adjustment, the problem is back again. Intermittent issues are just the worst. Karl, looks like you were correct, of course. ;) It was kind of a happy accident that I discovered a too lean issue and got it taken care of though. The plug reads a nice light coffee color now. Oh well, on to tracking this problem down. Going by the recommendations, I have ordered another ignition coil. Will keep all posted. Didn't Frank Sinatra sing "Boo boos', I've had a few......" ?
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Talented hotrod guys have told me the quality of fuel we are presented today will leave the best plug with a light sooty color.
Unless you are running avgas, I would not expect to see that picture perfect light tannish color. It's probably too lean.
IMO
redk
Question: What color is the factory plug in Your FI scooter at sea level ?
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PROBLEM SOLVED!!! As it turns out, I had a weak fuel pump. I replaced the fuel filter, and it helped, adjusted the fuel mixture, and it helped. I then cleaned the carb, and once again it helped. I finally replaced the fuel pump, and it fixed it!!
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Great news!
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Well Mr Paul you just proved the ole saying,"If at first you don't secede, try, try again" to be true. Good for you.
Mac
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Is your pump in the tank?
And what pump did you go with....Kymco or after-market?
Glad you got it sorted....intermittents are crazy making.
Stig
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Yea! Woof, woof, woof!
Karl
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And what pump did you go with....Kymco or after-market?
Kymco makes fuel pumps for Honda's? :)
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Is your pump in the tank?
And what pump did you go with....Kymco or after-market?
Glad you got it sorted....intermittents are crazy making.
Stig
Hey Stig. I went with the OEM Honda fuel pump. Its located outside the tank and like most things on the Helix, it is simple to replace. But, it cost 150 bucks. :(
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Sorry,
Three pages of posts I forgot what scooter we were working on.
Take no notice.....for nearly two yrs I've been calling a grandson Nolan.
Daughter informed me, " It's Noah.....your helmet is Nolan!"
You know what.... she's right - I do have a Nolan!
Stig
Hey Stig. I went with the OEM Honda fuel pump. Its located outside the tank and like most things on the Helix, it is simple to replace. But, it cost 150 bucks. :(
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Its all good Stig. I do the same thing! Whether it is a Kymco or Honda, I have found that it is best just to bite the bullet and buy OEM. Its cheaper and better in the long run.