KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: sidthesloth on February 08, 2010, 10:31:07 PM
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G'Day all, having problems with ZX50 and while looking on net found this site, couldn't resist signing up, (I have a lot to learn and you people seem to know a lot about these scooters. Looking forward to joining in and learning
Cheers, Rob.
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Welcome! I am a ZX50 owner as well! There is plenty of great information here!
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Welcome Rob! ZX Yeah, Yeah!!! What year do you have? Any Mods? Here's another site you may like... http://www.scooterinvasion.net/forum/index.php (http://www.scooterinvasion.net/forum/index.php) By the G'day I assume you live on that upside down continent. I can fix a scoot but can't for the life of me figure how people don't just fly off into space?!? Post any ?'s you have. there are plenty of people here that are willing to share what WE have learned. Lot's of easy going fun too.
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..welcome to the forum sid!
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[/..what up? welcome to the forum, i too am new here..my zx is an 04 model.....im learning alot here...
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G'Day,
Thanks all for the welcome, the scooter is an 07 Model blue in colour, no mods but has been derestricted, would like a 70cc kit for it but still trying to get it running properly! Parts are not easy to come by here at the moment, the scooters were imported by a third party(Bug scooters) but now Kymco are going to set up a dealer network. Hopefully, things will improve. As for problems, it can be difficult to start especially when it is at running temperature. The carby insulator was cracked and it has taken nearly ten months to get a new one!! Doesn't seem to have solved the problem though :(
As the wife no longer uses it (she now rides a 1999 Kawasaki GPX 250(Ninja), so I take it to work and buzz around town on it (Harley riders don't appreciate a wave lol )
Yes, zombie I am from Australia but it's our anti gravity boots that stop us from flying off into space! ::)
Cheers
Rob
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mine was hard to start also...mine was between carb or piston,rings...starts first kick now!!! HOOAH.....LMAO
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There are a few possibilities for a hard start when warm. First is the spark plug itself. There is a TINY resistor inside the ceramic that will go bad even if the plug looks brand new. Second could be the idle mix is off, and third could just be dirty jets in the carb. There are a few other things to look at like clamps being tight on the carb/manifold. the reed cage screws should be tight. Try a NEW plug, and adjust the smaller screw on the carb 1/4 turn at a time to get the best idle you can (when warm). If the rpms, get too high turn down the idle stop screw (the larger one). check the other little things for poss. leaks while you are at it. If that doesn't get it you may need to pull the carb for a THOROUGH cleaning. I use Brake Clean, and sewing needles to clean all the passages. One more Maybe, the choke tube may have some grit in it that is preventing it from seating. You can pull that apart to inspect/clean. Last thing I can think of is the air filter. Clean that up. Ps. Do you get the grav. boots at birth or do they wait to see how you do in school first? If you hook up the batteries in reversed polarity ( I assume they have batts. because solar power...) Cheers mate!
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G'Day Zombie, the first thing I tried was a new plug though the old one looked ok, I have tried adjusting the idle mix, 1/8 turn at a time, over a period of time, sometimes it seemed ok until it would not go, replace plug with old one and she would go, (kept spare plug under seat), a couple of times it would refuse to start until left a couple of hours.
When I found the cracks in the carb. insulator I thought alright here it is so I sealed it up though I couldn't guarantee the seal. I have stripped the carb a few times blowing through with compressed air, washed air filter all semingly no good. I was running it on 98 octane fuel but a couple of weeks ago changed back to 95. I fitted the new insulator a couple of days ago and now it seems to be better but not yet right. When it won't start on the button it usually only takes a few kicks to start. When at it's worst changing the plug seemed to get it going even though it was an old plug. The spark doesn't seem to be very strong (I am used to cars) but when going it seems to run ok. As for compression I don't have a guage but the feel through the kickstarter is prety good, (must get a compression guage). Do you think I should be looking at replacing the coil? As I said, I have a lot to learn.
Thanks for your assistance.
P.S. The anti grav. boots are from birth, being Aussies.
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Allright that is narrowing it down a little. What do you mean by carb insulator? The rubber boot to the manifold? That will wreck your day if there is an air leak there. I have had all three major electrical hot start issues. First off though, as you are riding does the performance drop off? A weak spark could be the coil, cdi, or stator. Could also be a bad ground to the frame/ battery. Check all your wiring connections. clean them w/ wd-40, pb blaster, or any type of spray lube you like. Do the same for all your switches. If there is a bad connection somewhere it will draw down the current to the cdi, or coil. Try those things and post back w/ the other answers. It just needs to be narrowed down. Lucky Aussie's. You get cool boots, and we get stuck where it sucks. OOhhh Welll~
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G'Day zombie, when running she goes fine up to about 72~73kmh where I think the rev limiter cuts in. It is now at its best since we got it a little over a year ago. the carb insulator is the 'plastic' plate between the carb and the manifold. Luv them boots.
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That plate I believe is your reed block. Let me find a pict. 210-212 http://www.stadiumyamaha.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/default.aspx (http://www.stadiumyamaha.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/default.aspx) Is that what you are referring to? Any leak in that area is a bad place to be for your engine. Omc perfect seal may help, or Yamabond I hear is also good. That will lead to overheating the piston, and hard starting because the fuel mix is burnt lean before it can ignite
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G'Day again zombie, the insulator is between the carb and manifold, the reed block is between the manifold and crankcase.what you said about burning lean and being hard to start sounds close to the mark. the nex insulator has made an improvement though not quite right.
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I believe you are referring to the diamond shaped spacer with recessed o-rings that goes between the carb and the manifold? But you're right that will definitely cause some problems if it's leaking!
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Yes, it was, but now that I have replaced it I was hoping for a better result. if compression was a problem I believe it would affect performance as well but she runs fine, (though there is always room for improvement).
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G'Day all, have decided to go with a cylinder kit, hopefully that will help, if not with starting then at least with performance. They seem rather expensive here, $339, in America they sell for around $199 which works out to $225 Australian at the current exchange rate.
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Which kit are you going with?
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Hi, I'm going to try a 50mm kit from taiwan, I figure the scooters are made there so the kit should be ok. Obviously cheaper than anything I can get locally. If it is a mistake I only have myself to blame. This is my first time so hoping for the best.
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Before you order check the wrist pin size on your scoot. MOST zx's are 10mm, but some have 12mm. That will determine which piston to order.
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Hmm, I have already bought it, I didn't know some had a 10 mm pin. may have made my first mistake. Still, I won't pull it apart until the bits arrive as I am still using the scooter. thanks for the warning.
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Not to jump ahead, and create trouble where there is none. Your supplier may have the 50mm piston in both wrist pin sizes. You will also want to open your main , and idle jets to get the new jug working right. I found torch tip cleaners work great. You can open the jets slightly until you get a good mix ratio, and not have a pocket full of extra useless jets. Hey man ps, I love the avatar. I tried to upload several animated avatars, and couldn't get them to run.
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Thanks zombie, I will need all the help I can get with the tuning so be warned I will be hounding you for info as I go. for the avatar I just googled ice age avatars and picked the one I wanted, Sid, of course.
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Not to jump ahead, and create trouble where there is none. Your supplier may have the 50mm piston in both wrist pin sizes. You will also want to open your main , and idle jets to get the new jug working right. I found torch tip cleaners work great. You can open the jets slightly until you get a good mix ratio, and not have a pocket full of extra useless jets. Hey man ps, I love the avatar. I tried to upload several animated avatars, and couldn't get them to run.
..not meaning to hi-jack ur thread or nothin', sid..but.......
..zombie..they may have been too "big"...there's a limit on the file size for ur profile pic...dunno what it is..
..animated pics are usually gif files, and usually aren't very large unless there are a bunch of frames..
..that may have been your problem..
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Yeah, that's why I tried several. Just couldn't find the magic number. Is there a way to reduce the file size?
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..not with the animated gifs...well, there is...but u gotta save each frame...edit and down-size them...it's waaaay too drawn out...lol...
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G'Day zombie, with regards to the piston pin size, having checked the service manual it shows as 12mm. This is for the SC10AS engine which mine is. This manual was printed in 2000 and my scoot is a 2007 model so they may have changed it in that time but I think they would have changed the engine model code if they did, here's to hoping. Will find out for sure as soon as it turns up.
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G'Day all, the 50mm cylinder kit turned up today so tomorrow I will find out for sure if it will fit. comp. tester turned up as well so will see what that tells. Has been a long time since I have had any trouble with the police and hope to keep it that way.
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Good deal Sid! Almost sounds like x-mas! Stay away from the cops! I figure I was due, it's been almost a year since the last time I got stopped on the scoot. The way I figure, at least it wasn't for anything serious!
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G'Day All, did compression test on Sid today, 105 psi, I don't know what the limit is but that doesn't sound too bad. Fitted the cylinder kit today also, piston pin was a 12mm one so that was a relief, the only thing I had to do to accomodate the larger barrel was file a bee's dick off the inlet manifold, the cooling covers went back on but did not quite meet up perfectly at the top, the spark plug cap sits a little proud of the covers. Sid is now 82cc. Now for the problem, after about ten minutes of riding she seems to get hot and sieze, allow to cool for a few minutes and starts again ok. Is this to be expected until the piston/rings/barrel wear in or should I be using mineral oil until worn in or perhaps increase the oil flow, (I am still using the original oil pump). This job has been both an experience and fun to boot. You blokes are an inspiration, thank you for your encouragement and advice, it is much appreciated. :)
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ASAP Either add 3/4 oz 2t oil per tank, or zip tie the injector pump open. The pump goes as low as 100:1 at idle, and 40:1 full thrott. You need at least 50:1 to wear in the rings. Did you check the end gap? It should be between 2-5 thous. Have you re-jetted? The easiest way to tell what is happening is check the plug. Also do what you can to reseal the engine shrouds. If air is getting out, it is not cooling. Try these few things, and let us know. Hey Congrats on the new baby! It'll be screaming by the end of the week!
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Cheers zombie, I will take the GPX to work tonight and work on Sid tomorrow, should I leave the oil system as is and add to the fuel tank as well or just go straight premix? Will put some tape over the cover joint but will need to find something to fill in under the spark plug cap. I didn't check the end gap as I thought they should be right being a set (oops). Should I use mineral oil or stay with synthetic? I had already drilled out the main jet earlier to 1mm then soldered it back to about .85 (sewing needle and vernier calipers) so drilling out again won't bother me, just need to find the correct size.
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Congrats on the install! Seizing doesn't sound good though! :o I run premix at about 37:1 of full synthetic. For the break in period don't use synthetic though. I also removed my oil pump, which was a bit of a pain, got if figured out now though! If you have any questions on how to I can help you out there! I'm not sure why you might be seizing. Zombie's idea of the ring gap sounds good. Otherwise, make sure she's getting enough oil and you may also need to go colder on your spark plug. Stock spec is a 7, I went from an 8 in my stock cylinder to a 9 in the new aluminum one. Definitely do lots of plug chops! You don't want to damage your new set-up! I made the mistake of not having the oil line hooked to the new carb right on mine and took a small piece of my brand new cylinder plating off! Damage can occur very quickly while trying to tune a new set up! Good luck!
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What Shaka said... I run oil in the tank, and use the pump too. Zip tie the pump for break in, and run it normal after that. I'm not really sure about changing 2t oil for break in. I never have done that. For a box new rebuild it makes sense, but for a piston/jug? You just may be too lean, and that is causing the sieze. Better to foul plugs than jugs. Pull the jug, and see where the siezing is happening. Most likely near the exhaust port. check the ring gap, and polish out any glazing w/ 600 grit emory paper. 85 sounds a little lite on the main. I have a different carb.( Delorto 28mm ) and started w/ 120 main. I think I am running 140-44 right now. I think you should be around 90-110. Also richen up the idle circuit because when you close the throttle after running at/near full, you have lots of rpm's and no fuel to keep the piston cool. The idle should be set to where you can hear the engine running at de- accell. If it is too lean the engine will be silent, and the overheat is beginning. Shaka will tell you ... Our scoots will just about foul out at idle, and run rich untill the main come in. It's the only way to keep a 70cc alive that I have found. (modded 70cc)
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G'Day zombie, thanks for the info, I have got the covers off, but have ducked out for a coffee with the missus and to find an exhaust gasket. will check the cylinder within the hour, hope I have not done any damage, another lesson learnt, no short cuts.
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I'm running an Arreche 19mm carb w/ K&N filter. I currently have a 25 pilot jet and 110 main. I think the needle is in the middle clip position. I was running a 20 pilot, 115 main before I installed a larger manifold and reed block. I still have some tuning to do, I think I may try a 105 main jet, it seems I'm pretty rich! I'm only getting about 30 mpg at best! I also just got my reduction gears installed yesterday, so it's back to tuning all over again! ;) I'm waiting on finishing my leak-down tester to really get into the carb tuning. I'm getting an easy 54 mph out of her now! I haven't had a chance to really get out and let her rip yet, but I'm sure there is some more to be had in the fine tuning! ;D
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G'Day shaka, I'm a long way off increasing the carb. size, I have just pulled the cylinder of and found the ring end gap to be 008", or 0.20mm. The bore is marked but not damaged but the piston has some heat/friction marks on it. I will try to get some pics. up. Do you think it would be worth running a cylinder hone through it? or should I just persevere with increased oil? As I said, I will be hounding for info.
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Hi, I'm trying to post some pics of the piston and cylinder, an excercise of frustration, see how this one goes. Piston.
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Aaaannd, Here is the cylinder.
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That's a big piston! It doesn't look too bad! It appears that the center of the piston is expanding and seizing. I'm not certain on this, but maybe you could open up, or cut some windows in the skirt on the boost port side to help with cooling the underside? Seek second opinion first! ;) Otherwise, you can take some real fine sandpaper and smooth the piston back out. Is your cylinder aluminum or cast iron? I wouldn't worry too much about honing it unless it has some deep scoring. Most aluminum cylinders are plated so you can't really hone them. I can't really tell from the pic what you have, but my guess is cast iron. That may also be working against you with the expansion rates of two different metals. At a minimum, take some fine sandpaper to the piston and run a couple plug chops. Make sure you let the scoot idle for a bit to warm up the engine before riding, especially if you have a cast iron cylinder.
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Looks like a lean mix, and light on the 2t oil. You can go around the piston w/ some emory cloth. Not up and down but around. Same w/ the jug. If there is any aluminum cast onto the jug you can use HCL, or Hydrochloric acid to melt it off. It only takes 4-5 seconds to work. The end gap is a tiny bit on the large side but is ok. A quick clean up, open the oil pump, add some 2t to the tank, and open the main jet. That should get you going. Looks like a nice clean cylinder for off the shelf. Did they send any tech info. on timing, or power band! I'm very curious!
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Hi, I didnt use any emery cloth but I did go and buy a hone and ran that through using 2t oil. They sent no info at all, just the parts, they did semd a new piston pin bearing which was not in the listing(bonus).
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Make sure you clean up the cylinder also!
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Sorry about the poor photos. The hone cleaned the cylinder up quite nice. Tomorrow will drill out the main jet to 1mm. I have added 100mls. of 2t oil to the tank and filled up with 95RON. Off to work now so will have to wait until tomorrow, (will log on via mobile phone)
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Zombie as I said they sent no info but if you like it was from ebaymotors.com, autotech355, is a honda dio big bore 82cc cylinder kit. Hope that helps. (hope I didn't breach any rules with that).
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RULES???!!!??? WHA? It's all good. That's why the forum is here, to share Info.. You increased your capacity by almost a third, so you have to do the same with your fuel/air. The stock carb will get you enough fuel w/ re-jetting to keep the combustion temp. in line but you will never get enough air to take advantage of the jug. I' am running a 28mm Delorto carb on a 70cc kit. You will need to find something around 20-28mm depending on how far you want to mod the scoot. You will most likely wind up around 1.5mm on the main, and 40-44 on the pilot. You will also need either a full flo filter or a heavily modded air box to get a decent set up until you replace the carb.
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G'Day zombie, I would prefer to keep my original box if possible, what could I do to make that possible?
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Cut all the baffels out, I used a dremel tool. Drill a series of 3/4-1" holes behind the element, and get a piece of Unifoam to cut a custom filter. (replaceing the oem foam) you will only need a small piece approx. 4"x2"x2". I have an open K&N type, and I rarely have trouble w/ rain, so cutting holes in yours be be even less trouble. Ps Drill a 1/4" hole at the lowest point in the box to prevent any water from collecting
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Cheers zombie, I would like to go to an open type filter but where I work it gets covered with coke breeze so an enclosed one would be preferable, I will try those mods you suggested. I have drilled the main jet to 1mm and it is doing the same as it did with the original cylinder just not getting up to speed, should I look at doing the air filter now or have I missed something. I do not know where the pilot jet is.
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The pilot jet is the tiny jet used only for the idle circuit. You may still be too lean. What exhaust do you have?, Have you pulled the spark plug after a short full throttle run (60 seconds or a little less)
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I still have the original exhaust which may be my downfall. I have not been able to get a full throttle run yet as the engine wont rev as it should, may need to close the jet again?
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Well the oem pipe may be your saving grace for now. It will prevent complete scavenging of the cly. allow you to get by w/ the stock carb./air box. It may be easier to move the needle up or down to determine which way to go on the jet. Raising the needle will richen you up, and vice versa. Can you get a decent idle out of it? What happens as you rev?
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From memory the needle is not adjustable. it idles good, revs ok just bogs under load.
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Sorry, my mistake, it does bog even with no load on it, twist the throttle and it sounds snappy for the first bit then just bogs, it doesn't die just doesn't rev any more. before I drilled the jet it rode ok, until it heated. Do you think I should perhaps go back on the jet size until I can get an appropiate exhaust? Though it wont be realising it's full potential it will still be usable until I can afford the pipe and carb. If need be, I will go with a pod style filter, just mean more frequent replacement.
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Your needle is adjustable. It should be in the center position, leaving two up, and two down. (the needle in the throttle slide). If it ran lean, and overheated, then you drilled it, and it bogs the needle may take care of everything. Drop it down two notches, meaning raise the e clip to the top of the needle. That will lower the needle into the main jet, and lean the mid range mix. Try that , and see what you get. After thought: Which carb is on there?
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Is a keihin carb.
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It's adjustable Bro! pull the cap, pull the spring back from the slider, pop the retainer, and lower the needle. You should see an improvement in a few minutes. You will still need to do a few plug chops to get it dialed in but this will get you into the game!
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Hey Sid, I just pulled out my stock Kehin carb to look. The need is not adjustable. You could raise it about 2mm if you put a washer underneath, but no way to lower it. So not really any help there.
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Yeah, I thought it was not adjustable, though the manual says it is.
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??? I have my old one on an nc/50 and it is adjustable! HMmmmm, Take the needle to a bike shop and get a similar taper/length that is adj. You really can't tune it right w/out an adj. needle. You know I am starting to think I do own a Beer Drinking Beaner... (I had trouble finding a throttle cable, and was told my zx was either a Canadian, or Mexican import). If you can't find one local I have a few carbs that I can pull one out of, and mail it to you. Should take what, about a week?
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Thanks for the offer, that is very generous, I appreciate it and may even take you up on it. I will see what our local shop can come up with, (we only have one).
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No trouble at all. It may be the quickest route. I can post it out before noon Sat., and make it express mail. I'll Pull what i have, and give you some #'s on size
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Thank you very much, how will I pay for them? I can do paypal or internet bank transfer. our local shop opens in about 1 hour, it is now 7:30 Saturday morning.
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Wow!!! It's 4:55 pm Fri. It'll only cost me a few $ to post it out. Just pay it on to someone there that needs batteries for their Gravity boots. My email is in the members section, Just email an address, and I'll get out what I have in the morning. I always wanted to say this... G'Day Mate! Ps What is the length of the needle in your carb now.
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G'Day zombie, the needle length is 31mm, part? no. is KT90.
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Hi, now I will go and reduce the size of the jet and try to raise the needle a little, then I can do some runs and see how the plug goes, hopefully.
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I' got it here. I didn't check the email yet so just be sure to post me a post. I'll tape the E clip to a card so it wont get lost. Hope it does the trick.
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Hi zombie, I have sent the email, I think I got it right, (computers are a bit of a mystery to me).I tried to drill into the slide a little to adjust the pin, it did make a difference but so slight. I resoldered the jet and got it to about 0.85mm, it is rideable so I held it full open and took the plug out when I got back, (didn't take the tool kit with me, was still sitting in the shed from having the bucket out). I took some photos of the plug, but again they are not much good.
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To do a proper plug chop you need to warm up the scoot. Put a brand new plug in and go for about a 1 km ride using only the throttle position you are checking for, in your case WOT. While still running at WOT hit the kill switch and come to a stop while still holding the throttle at WOT. Once the engine completely stops you can let go of the throttle. Take your test plug out and put your other plug back in and ride home. On the test plug you are actually looking for the color of the about 1mm wide ring on the insulator down on the inside almost all the way in. It can be hard to see you may need a flashlight to get a good look. That ring should show a nice caramel brown against the white porcelin.
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OK thanks for that shaka, my first time doing this, I'm sure I'll get the hang of it eventually.
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Thanks Shaka! Sid, I have one of those Xpensive cameras w/ all the do this do that settings, and my picts. come out the same as yours. My buddy has a pink do nothing but snap cameras, and his picts post like they are from NASA. Heres a link to what the plug should look like. http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:GWxVkWUBzb4J:www.paradrenalin.com/Spark%2520Plug%2520Color%2520Chart.pdf+spark+plug+color+chart&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESij0N5FFPocWiwf4VDFupy6mWSfW6Y9XR0I_Ymp64WOx9D72jUqD0kdOAEnh0fH7FRyozRn6oa_BFhYYouLdpfkta1EnqOVruCfhs02ooOG3qCxPLQkfktjuf4Q_pCJn7iBOWun&sig=AHIEtbQIrrHzVlFaomFOfOEef_UncivxVg (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:GWxVkWUBzb4J:www.paradrenalin.com/Spark%2520Plug%2520Color%2520Chart.pdf+spark+plug+color+chart&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESij0N5FFPocWiwf4VDFupy6mWSfW6Y9XR0I_Ymp64WOx9D72jUqD0kdOAEnh0fH7FRyozRn6oa_BFhYYouLdpfkta1EnqOVruCfhs02ooOG3qCxPLQkfktjuf4Q_pCJn7iBOWun&sig=AHIEtbQIrrHzVlFaomFOfOEef_UncivxVg) Follwo shaka's advice for each "chop", and at different ranges of the throttle, and you can DIAL in the carb. Bad news is untill you get a stable set up, and all your parts installed you will be doing it again. I have tried to replicate parts from one bike to another but have ALWAYS found they must be tuned to the specific bike. I got the email, and the needle will be there asap. Just don't get hasty, it's like learning to walk... One step at a time!
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Forgot to say the plug looked ok from what I could see. Turn the tip towards the camera, so we can see the insulter. How did it feel on the ride?
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It's all a learning process! I was in your shoes less than 1 year ago! By the end of it all, which is never by the way, you'll be a pro and can pass along the good advice!
Ps. from what I can see, I would concur w/ Zombie and say your plug looks ok. As long as it's not white or grayish!
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Yeah, tomorrow I will warm her up and put the new plug in and see what it looks like. on the ride it felt ok, a little slow but not bad. I see the seller of the cylinder kit also sells carbs and exhausts as well. after fiddling with the engine today I managed to wire up the high beam dimmer switch and put in the halogen bulb as well. just to stray off subject a little, (still on scooter though).
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Now you can say been ther done that, A spelt ther lik it sonded!
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Righto Blokes, here we have my very first proper plug chop, (by these photos you can see why they wouldn't hire me as a photogrpher), I used my mobile phone for these pics. The ride was 1.2 km. To me the plug looks clean but I think the ride should have been a touch longer but you can still see the colour. Here are the pics.
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And, pic no.2.
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That looks pretty good, just maybe a tad on the lean side, hard to tell from the pic. If your camera is like mine, use the little flower looking button for close ups in fine detail, works great!
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I would say a little lean also. maybe another 2 steps up. 1 may do it but you should stay a little rich just to be safe. How did it feel?
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It felt ok, but I have gone out for a ride on it again and it has seized again.will allow it to cool and take it home. I had added 100mls oil to the tank as well as using the pump. maybe get pipe next?
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Just kinda an obvious question, but are you running it with the fan shrouds on? That whole seizing scenario isn't good! I'd hate for you to ruin your new cylinder and piston!
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Yes, the shrouds are on. do you think maybe the exhaust might be too restricted for this size cylinder? Maybe not letting the gasses out causing overheating?
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Good! That could be. It did look like it was seizing on the exhaust port side.
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Yeah, I'll check ebay and see what I can find. I am a sucker for ebay. I wont ride it again until we can get it sorted out.
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This is the new plug, it was in when seized.
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It doesn't necessarily look lean, but the plug temp may be too hot. Maybe try running one number higher (colder) on the next plug and see what it looks like. What plug are you running now?
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NGK BR8HSA
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Try running a 9, that's what I'm using.
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Will do, if they have them in stock. if not, what would be the next best?
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Your local store should be able to cross reference that NGK number. Your looking for the BR8HSA. They didn't have them in stock when I got mine either. They just cross referenced and I got some Champion plugs of the same size. They are cheaper than the NGK so I bought all of the ones they had in stock for plug chops. I'm still trying to exhaust that supply! ;) There is a good explanation of what that letter/number code means on the NGK website. It has to do with the thread size, length, temp. range., and some other things.
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Yeah, when I was looking for an irridium plug I downloaded their catalogue. more than I needed but I now have it.
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Go colder, and richer. The needle I sent is a thiner quicker taper than the part # you posted so it may help . I would still go another step richer. That plug is too dry, meaning the comb. temp. is too hi. Colder/richer/thinner needle. It will have to be done again when you put the pie on, but by then you will be an expert at carb tuning!
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Cheers mate, I dont know about being an expert but sure am learning.
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G'Day zombie, I now have an exhaust on the way, it is from the manufacturer of the cylinder kit so it should match pretty well. Earlier you asked about info on the cylinder, well apparently it produces 13 hp. @ 8,800 rpm. They do also sell carbs. for this set up, but I will have to wait until I can afford it. Patience. Going through some old posts it seems the C.D.I., voltage regulator and coil are weak links. You had found a company that will program them to your desired settings, would they be able to build in a rev. limiter at a given point so as to protect the engine from self destruction, yet still achieving a resonable power output?
Cheers
Rob.
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From everything I have read on the zx, It has one of the strongest crank set ups you can get. The rev limit can be set at any point you desire, but WHY? Your set up will most likely spin up to 11'000 and still be strong so maybe set a limit around 12'000-12'500. If you go thru Suitai, I would suggest standard timing, and that 12ish # for the limit. It,s going to be a steep learning curve for your kit, so I would think to wait on the cdi until the carb is set up. Your de-restricted cdi will do the same as their new one it just may not last as long. I was eating them up, until I bought the last one. The way It was explained to me is the circuit will overheat with high rpm's, and that causes the failure. With your stock carb. I don't think you will be spinning over 7,000-8,000 rpms. w/ the larger carb it is a whole new tuning game. Do you have a make or mm size for the carb they suggest? You want to be sure it is a quality carb. or the tunning will be that much harder. I prefer anything w/ a turn off cap on top. Mine has a bolt on, and has ALWAYS been trouble. I wound up making an epoxy glass cap the seals much better, and is much more stable.
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G'Day zombie, they offer carbs in 19, 24, 28,30mm. the image looks like a screw on cap. with the cdi, the voltage regulator should prevent that, I would have thought.
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I have been running my stock de-restricted since I bought the scoot almost 2 yrs and 12,000kms ago. I am on my 3rd voltage regulator. Still the original coil. I don't think there is any need to put a rev limit on the cdi. They are factory restricted to meet local laws for import, not to protect the engine. Like Zombie said the bottom can hold the extra torque and high rpms. The new cylinder should be designed for it as well. I'm using a 19mm Arreche carb on my 70cc, so I would think a 24mm would work well with your set-up.
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Cheers shaka, I am in new territory, way out of my depth, kind of exciting. I was wrong with the carb, they are not a screw top, I think they are a flat slide. So do you reckon it is worth getting a spare voltage regulator?
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You may want to get a spare one if it is hard to get parts where you are. They are relatively inexpensive as well. I think mine cost about $30-$35 from my local dealer. You can get them much cheaper online though. Do you know what manufacturer those carbs are? My guess is that only the larger sized ones are flat slide. I don't that I've seen a flat slide smaller than about a 28mm. The screw top really does make tuning easier, as well as a removable cap in the bottom of the bowl to access the main jet.
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I dont know the company name but they trade as autotech355 on ebay motors.com. if you do a search for honda dio carb that will come up. yeah I think online is the only way to go nowadays.
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The cdi is fired by AC voltage on the zx/ so the regulator has no effect on protection. all the reg does is fire the lights/horn, and charge the battery. I trust what I was told it is a rpm thing that causes the cdi failure. If you de-restrict and run a high reving engine it will fail. That happens because we are shorting a circuit that limits rpm's not completing an open circuit. Now the bad news. the 24/28 will both do the trick. They both also need larger reeds, and intake manifold. You can run a rubber adapter for the carb., and a good set of reeds. that will require jetting the new carb. to your current set up, then re-jetting as you swap out parts. That,s why I knew you would be an expert jetter. Practice makes perfect Bro! I'll check out the carbs tonight. I,d like to see what else they have!
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Thanks zombie, the carbs come as a set with manifold and reeds as well as air filter and throttle cable. Maybe too good to pass up?
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I checked out what that guy is selling. They are OKO flat slide carbs. I've heard a little bit of mixed things about them, but I think overall they are good. Especially, for the price! I've heard a lot of mixed things about my Arreche also, mostly negative, but mine seems to work well.
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Well, you have had time to learn and set up your carb and it is working for you , so as long as you are happy with it that is what really matters. If someone doesn't like them, well that is fair enough, we all have our own preferences. I on the other hand am learning, so sooner or later I will decide I either like this one or or I don't. But for starting out the price is just way too tempting. Looks like Sid's starting problems has scored himself some oversized cojones. lol.
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Very true! I think that most of the people that complain about any carb are doing so because they don't know how or can't get it tuned right! My only real complaint about my Arreche is the availability of alternate taper needles. I haven't been able to find any!
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Maybe if enough people asked for them they might consider making them. Could be worth a try.
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They make them. I just haven't found anywhere to get them. The company is in Spain, and I don't speak Spanish, I don't think they speak English. I kinda gave up looking. I got it tuned pretty well. I just think I could get it a little bit better with a different needle.
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Sounds like the problem I had with the carby insulator, no one was interested, so when I suggested to ring Kymco in taiwan my wife said "you don't speak taiwanese", I figured she had a point so I didn't ring. When I rang Kymco Australia they said "you need to go to a dealer". Hmm, find a dealer who is bothered with something under $100. It did work out eventually, (10 months).
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I found the same thing after months of searching for parts... If you contact the original supplier of the parts, they can understand enough to make a sale.
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G'Day again blokes, I haven't been doing anything with sid today as am waiting for the exhaust to turn up. The email I got from the cylinder supplier said to mix oil to fuel at a ratio of 300cc oil to 1000cc fuel, that sounds like too much oil to me. At 20:1 it is 50 ml to 1 litre. Have I missinterpreted something?
Cheers,
Rob.
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G'Day again blokes, I haven't been doing anything with sid today as am waiting for the exhaust to turn up. The email I got from the cylinder supplier said to mix oil to fuel at a ratio of 300cc oil to 1000cc fuel, that sounds like too much oil to me. At 20:1 it is 50 ml to 1 litre. Have I missinterpreted something?
Cheers,
Rob.
I am not sure what you are talking about (did not follow this thread), but if you are asking how much oil goes into gasoline for 2stroke scooters, it is usually 2-4 %, so that would be 20-40 cc per 1000 cc of gasoline.
Why are you worrying about that, don`t you have automatic mixture?
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G'Day axy, with the cylinder upgrade to a 50mm piston the oil pump does not supply enough oil, so I will be premixing.
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G'Day axy, with the cylinder upgrade to a 50mm piston the oil pump does not supply enough oil, so I will be premixing.
I know that performance 2st engines have higher ratios.
"Most tool, transportation and recreational requirements, such as golf carts, motorcycles, snowmobiles, blowers, chainsaws, tillers, rotary plows, utility tractors, commercial two cycle carts, garden tools, motor scooters, motor skates and other two cycle engines are in the range of 20:1 to 80:1, gas to oil. Many motorcycles are 32:1, others are 40:1 and still others are 50:1. If you are uncertain, consult your owners manual."
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I premix (currently with BelRay H1R) at a ratio of about 37.5:1 - 40:1. I mix between 16 - 17 oz in 5 gal. I have a 16.9 oz water bottle I fill up and mix in a 5 gal gas can. I make sure I put exactly 5 gal in at fill up. I also mix in .5 oz of Sta-bil marine formula in the 5 gal. I don't know how many cc's are in a gallon off hand, but 300 cc: 1000 cc is too much.
There are 128 oz in a gallon. Multiply by 5 = 640 oz in 5 gal. 640 oz divided by 17 oz = 37.65 : 1
640 oz divide by 16 = 40 : 1
1000 divide by 300 = 3.33 : 1 = Too much!
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Thanks shaka, I thought it was too much. I thought 20:1 would be good to start with until all sorted. sed I have a lot to learn
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I think the "recommend" is for break in. That I believe is where all the gen. consensus is. After that I think it is up to what the main bearings need more than cyl. lube.
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I've never heard of anyone going more than 30:1 - 35:1. I don't think you want to overdue it on the break in also. You want the rings to be able to seat properly. The same principle as not using full synth. on break in.
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The bottom line is: What works where you are, may not work here. I rode Potato fields all year round on Long Island N.Y. In the summer I would mix MUCH richer because of the dust. Winter was supper tune time because of the dense air. There are lots of routes to the same goal. Combustion temperature. I generally run 40:1 as a base for all 2t engines.
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Ok, thanks for that, I will mix my first 10 litre batch at 35:1 for a start and go from there.
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I just re read my last posts. Sounded snoty to me. Sorry guys.
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Nah mate, you're good, I do appreciate all the help.
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G'Day All, my exhaust and carb. turned up today, I wasn't expecting the carb for about another week. I have fitted them up (wasn't the throttle cable a tricky one to remove. Shaka, I was just reading your post about removing the oil pump, did you end up getting the plug from Japan or did you go another route? I was wondering about removing the drive gear and leaving the pump in place, Is this possible? Not long now and will see how she goes. :) Zombie, thanks for sending the carb needle but unfortunately the carb turned up first. I will send it back when it arrives. Again thank you, that was very generous and I do appreciate it.
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I haven't gotten around to getting the oil pump plug from Japan yet. I'm currently using the expansion plug. I just ended up modifying the bracket that holds the pump in. I flattened out the tab that covers the top so that it rests on the expansion plug. I haven't had any more troubles with it since I put the bracket on. The gear is not removable on the pump, it is all one piece. I've heard of people grinding the gear off, but I found it easier to just remove it. I also didn't want to destroy a perfectly good pump, for some reason.
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Yeah, I agree, I like to keep everything reversible so it can be put back to original if needed.
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Just wish it would have done you some good. How did the carb mate up to your manifold?
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Hi zombie, the carb came as a kit with a power inlet, 4 reeds and manifold to suit. I have taken it for a ride, and wow, phenomenal improvement. with regards to the oil pump, the driveshaft just slides out so I put the pump body back in and blocked the inlet and outlet hoses. So the missus now gets the GPX.
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Hey Sid, I just went and looked at my old oil pump and the shaft does slide right out! Funny I never noticed that! Nice one!!!! ;)
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Sid- I don't know if you've seen it, but Josh @ Scooter Invasion is working on a 50mm big bore that's getting the WORKS!
http://scooterinvasion.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2028 (http://scooterinvasion.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2028)
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No, I haven't seen it yet but I will when I can get these pics sorted.
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Yeah, I just had a look at it. Great stuff. Hey shaka, I see you're from Wilmington, I went for a ride this morning, through Pt. Augusta, Quorn, Wilmington and back through Pt. Augusta and home, about 270kms. all up. Just had to go for a ride, didn't get a chance on my last lot of days off. But this was Wilmington South Australia of course. :)
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Yeah, apparently there are Wilmington's everywhere! 270kms sounds like a nice ride. I was happy with the 50kms I got in the other day! 270kms sure would wear on my back though! ;)
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I was riding the GS500, may be a bit much for a zx50. I tooksome pics of the spark plug that is in the scooter but I could only get one below the 192kb limit. I know it is not a correct plug chop, but do you think it looks ok. From the diagram that zombie posted a link to I thought it looked like somewhere around no.19.
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This is the exhaust. Looks pretty close to the original one.
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I think the plug looks pretty good, may be a tad on the lean side, but should be safe. That exhaust looks pretty nice! Is it an expansion inside that canister?
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Yeah, the initial pipe is larger and the sound is completely different so I guess it is. I will get some plugs tomorrow and see what that shows. I cant get 9s unless I order BR9-10.
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G'Day again, adjusted the carb needle up one notch, seems to run better, more responsive from idle and more settled on cruise (just backing off throttle to maintain speed), heading in the right direction now.
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G'Day, did a plug chop, finally, since raising the needle yesterday it is a lot better but I think it needs to go up one more, what do you think?
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Can't see too much with that photo, here is one of the plug I have been using.
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Really hard to tell in that pic. I can't tell if it's all the light or it is really lean. That one looks leaner than the last, my guess is the pic though. How long are you running the plugs for? Just a tip, but I did end up re-using some of my initial "real lean" plugs for later plug chops after I knew it was running richer than before. It just added color to the previously white plug. I'm still trying to use up all those darn plugs! ;)
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The second pic looks pretty good. Is that your all around plug? My guess is that you're good on everything up to WOT. Which indicates too small of a main jet. You might try to go one jet larger and drop the needle.
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The needle was on the second notch and yesterday I raised it to the middle one, do you think I should try going up one more or just order a new jet? The pics were taken in the daylight, (beautiful weather at the moment, hence yesterdays ride).
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The needle only adjusts the fuel flow from about 1/4 - 3/4 throttle. At WOT the needle is not a factor. You have the needle pulled all the way up out of the jet. If you are running lean at WOT the only thing you can do is to increase the jet size. The needle position is really to adjust the mid-range and the transitions into and out of it. I may have already given you this link, but if not check out the small blue graph of what "circuit" of the carb is operating at which throttle position. This is a good visual of where you need to make adjustments.
http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/How_To_Tune_PHBG_Carburetors (http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/How_To_Tune_PHBG_Carburetors)
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Yeah, after I posted thast post I realised it might be something like that. what about when cruising, just backing off to maintain speed? it seems to have a rattle there. Maybe a crabked ring, with the heating and seizing issues in the start it could be possible?
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I will check that link when I get home. (on mobile phone at the moment).
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Hey Guys! Fell off the planet for a couple days. Amazing how much happens! Sid, I think those chops look great. The rattle MAY be pre-ignition. Do you have any photos of the head before you installed it? (combustion chamber) Are you running Hi Test fuel? My scoot has a funny rattle to it at idle, that I just live with. I re-checked everything 10 times, and figure it is just the harmonics of the set-up. If you cracked a ring you may be able to either see it or feel it thru the monstrous exhaust port on that jug. there will be a score in the jug if a ring broke. It only takes seconds for a broken ring to leave its mark. Well a plug chop at full throttle will get you set on the main jet, as the photo did look good. You may want to go 1 step colder though. For a new jug there should be a little more oil showing. the plug is showing how the cylinder looks, and I think it is a little dry for break in. Have you posted a link for the kit you have? I would sure like to see that.
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G'Day zombie, sounds like you need the antigravity boots. :) I have mixed the fuel oil @ about 33:1 (300ml.oil/10.00litres petrol). I don't know what high test fuel is but am using Shell V.Power which is 98RON. (the highest available here). I don't have a photo of the head. The rattle is at cruise as you back off to maintain speed, it was worse before I raised the needle so I am thinking a larger jet, (is a 107 now) have emailed seller for a larger one, will also check local bike shop as I think it looks like a mikuni jet he showed me last week. here is the link, hope this works.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-DIO-82cc-90cc-Big-Bore-50mm-cylinder-kit_W0QQitemZ330416972035QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4cee62e103 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-DIO-82cc-90cc-Big-Bore-50mm-cylinder-kit_W0QQitemZ330416972035QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4cee62e103)
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Right, found main jet to be same as keihin, so changed to 120 (also have a 125). took for a ride and a little sluggish so dropped needle back to original position, second notch. jet was easy to change through a plug in the bottom of the bowl.
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I told you I live where it $uck$. Grav boots would make it $uck more. Hi test is slang for the best you can get at a station. The photo from the link helped quite a bit. The head has the correct orientation of the cooling fins for the shrouds, which is a good sign. It also has an offset plug/combustion chamber which is another +. The bit about the rattle does sound like pre-ignition, and that would explain why the plug has good color, but is soooo dry. I forgot to say how cool that pipe looks on the scoot. It has a massive header pipe. I can say I felt a chill... Not to sound like I read a book, and got smarter... BUT have you checked the piston to head clearance? (squish) Most people seem to agree that .5-.8mm is best. Shaka had alot of trouble w/ gaskets on the bottom of the jug, and at the top to balance the cyl.
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G'Day zombie, I did check the clearance of the piston to the top of the barrel, though I didn't measure the gap, there was clearance there.I am going for the big one and am trying to post 2 pics. Plug with 120 jet.
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Too Lean. See the crackle on the electrode? That is pre-ignition! Was that a w.o.t. chop?
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Still thinking of trying the 125 jet. Hey, that carb. needle just turned up as I was writing this post, thanks zombie but the new carb is in.
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Yes a W.O.T. chop, (with some drongo in a Commodore getting in the way).
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No Doubt! go richer, and maybe colder. If your mid range can handle a bigger main. You may wind up w/ the needle at the top notch, but then a fatter taper will move it back to the mid position. Deff. go bigger on the jet
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Sounds good to me, at least we have the jets locally so I can actually follow your advice now. Shall I go with the 125 or go and get a 140. They have them up to 200 so I should get it right eventually. These are the jets for this carb.
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My gut says 125, but I will bet it will wind up 130-133?
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OK, will go put the 125 in and go get a 130 for next try.
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It does look lean, or a combination of too hot and lean. I think I'd go for the right mix before I messed with the plug temp. Just remember, too rich is better than too lean! It is better to go with a jet you know/think will be too big and work your way smaller! I think that rattle you are describing may be detonation. Like Zombie said, that one pic with the flaky stuff on the electrode is what mine looked like when I was having those issues. Yours has a better mix color than mine did though.
I've got some new parts on the way for mine. A new clutch, clutch fly springs, piston rings and gasket set. I'm going to use the new base gasket as a template to attempt to make an aluminum jug spacer for my set-up. That will allow me to take out the extra head gasket I've been running and raise my port timings and squish as well. I'm hoping that won't put me back in the detonation range! I think raising the port timings may give me a little better performance. As well as the new piston rings to hopefully get a little of my compression back. I still working towards my 60 mph goal, only 5 more to go! I know it's hidden somewhere in the fine tuning! ;)
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It's in there... somewhere. Have you tried soldering the jets closer sid? If the 125 is better, and the 140 is tooo much (just a guess) you can close down the 140 to what you need.
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Ran the 125, this chop is with the same plug as last time, got a 130 jet, if no better I will go for the 140. I am getting worried that I might have damaged my piston with all of the too lean/hot running, hope I haven't cracked it in the top ring groove.
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It is better. The "crackel" is less. The color is still too lean. How far/much time is on that one? How did it feel/sound? If you realy think it is a damaged jug/piston assem. it won't hurt to pull the head. I liked the coffee color plug from the second post. Was that just an overall? Oh hey Did you see the 2t tuners books links? I cant sit, and read the whole thing on the computer, but it does have ALL the answers about the damage, and why it happens. Funny thing is I figured most of it w/out all the math. Your kit looks Kick A$$! It May take a second piston to tune it reliably. I'm not sure but just a thought. It is very difficult to damage the jug if you have a simple detonation problem. Aluminum can be washed out of the bore. If you burn thru the crown of the pist. you will have alum. in the case which sucks. Maybe just pull the head, and see what is going on w/ the cly. walls. Look CAREFULLY at the dome of the pist. (magnified) and look for a rough patch. Kinda like sandpaper. I see this one as a potential 70mph project that once broken in will last. After all bro you have a stable full of thorough breds, and this is just a scooter
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Nah mate, it's just the noise that bothers me, only there when warm and worse as gets hotter, I will try the 130 jet before oulling the head. I did have a look at the 2stroke tuners handbook, though a lot of it is above me there is still a lot of info for me to learn from. The part about the forces of the gas on the rings was interesting and right at where I was having trouble (due to excessive exhaust restriction). 70mph on Sid is a scary thought, but who am I to deny him? Won't be able to do any more tests over the weekend as we are going to adeleide ( our local capital city) for the weekend, one of our dogs has been selected to go into the state obedience championships. We will be leaving tomorrow morning and won't be back until Sunday night. This is Loki. Tri-colour Border Collie.
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It still looks pretty lean down on the inside, where the mix ring is. I'd think if you have a broken piston ring you'd know it for sure by now! I don't have a whole lot of experience with broken rings though. Just one a while back on a pocket bike, it was pretty obvious something serious was wrong! You may want to toss the 140 in there and see how it goes. Like I said you can always go smaller without risk of damage in the process!
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This is Flash, Border Collie X Collie. She made it to the state champs. last year and completely bombed. Lovely dog all the same.
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Cheers mate, I'll whack the 130 in now and go get a 140.
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A Calico Puppy!!! How friggin' SWEEEEET! I KNEW there was a connect. I have the World State City Universe NON Diocletian Champion breeding pair! In fact when you finally get the needle assem. you will IN FACT have some of their DNA. I stuck it all together w/ Scotch tape. Oh yeah. I have gotten my NEW set-up to 67mph (7 months ago) and w/ out a fork brace I would not recommend it. Even good tires can't stop the frame from flexing on a GREAT road. Stay alive Sid. The puppy needs a ride to the show. Oh yeah. The noise IS pre ign. I will bet my Breeders on it! Enjoy the show Bro, Hope you guys ROCK IT.
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Just messing about the dogs! They actually won a contest on Pluto. Not the coveted WSCUNDC! We Vaca. there.
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I just put the 130 jet in and lowered the needle to the lowest setting, performance is great but noise is still there.
The dogs are our pets but the missus loves obedience and agility with them. Myself I just love them as pets. Yeah I saw the sample, international dogs. I went and got the 140 jet but don't know if it will go with this needle, one way to find out I suppose. I can see some trans. tuning coming up, who knows, that variator I got just may go on yet, it was from scooter assassins so it may be worth a little grinding on the crankcase.
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Are there any jets available between 130 & 140? You may find the magic number in that range. As for the detonation, you may try running 2 base gaskets, or 2 head gaskets to lower the compression a little. Otherwise, you may be stuck running super high octane racing fuel. That's not very economical, or practical! When you take the head off to check the rings also check the head and piston for any "shiny" spots where they may be touching. That was the tell tale sign I found with mine. Mine only made noise at about 3/4 - full throttle. I think it was both detonation as well as slight contact between the piston and head. I think I also had 140 psi of compression at the time which was probably attributing to the detonation.
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Yeah with the jets they have 132, I think 133, 135 not sure of any others. I don't really want to pull the head again until I can get another head gasket, though I might be tempted on Monday. Cutting an extra base gasket from 0.8mm oil jointing gasket paper should be ok? My noise is coming in at just on back off and slight deceleration.
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Ah Hah! If you start fouling plugs it is better than melting pistons. The Ah Hah was for the var. For all you have done it is almost a shame not to fit a good/better part. I still don't see how you found a MAJOR jug kit, got it running, and still haven't melted it into pennies to be. Must be something to do w/ the agility part of it (hate to admit it) From the older photo of the var. it looked like a 2ish mm grind? Fix the jug kit first tho. Get it reliable, then work on the cvt. Too many irons in the fire only confuses results. Breaking news... My doguppies just won the Intergalactic marathon. W/out $uck boots... Back to the real... TINY is best once you start to grind/fit parts. Get the clearance, and if it is balanced it will fit. 1mm is good for most all parts cold, as the parts heat the tol. will narrow but that is what u want. You are tuning an engine that was made to do one thing, and you are re-setting it to do another thing. The Superfever is a solid base for mods. It's just like the S9 in that they stopped putting them out. WHY WHY WHY F those Min. F those Yam. F those Gir. They ALL need better cranks/conrods. Little baby 10mm pins are sooooo cute! Just don't blow it up Bro!
,
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Yes, I would rather foul plugs than burn a piston, but then I would want to clean that up too. I would love to tune the C.V.T. but not until the engine is sorted. All because the little scooter would start properly. Hmmm, all fun. By the way the original piston/ ring set up the top ring gap was 0.8mm, the bottom was 0.18 with the ring (spacer? expander?) was broken.
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Thinner needle. You are narrowing it down. The rappappappa would be on accel if you were too lean on the main. de-accell means too lean in the mid. You want to almost foul when you close the throttle. These are Tiny engines that we are asking rice rocket results from. I play w/ Harley riders most every day. Compare the orig needle to the one you have now, and hopefully the one you get tomorrow. Put the thinnest one in, and I think you will be better. Breaking news......... The ground hog from crow-atia that killed Charlie Gibbson is on the loose. It is suspected he is on an African Airways flight to a Puppy show on the upside down land known to us all as The Grav Boot place!
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I dont know what yo mean by this the bottom was 0.18 with the ring (spacer? expander?) was broken.
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So rather than change the needle should I just put the 140 in and leave the needle as is for now and wait and see. The needle in this carb is considerably longer than the one in the original carb.
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With the original piston the bottom ring gap was 0.18mm, the bottom ring expander was also broken. No wonder it was reluctant to start sometimes.
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Sounds like you had a stock set up? I have not seen an expander on any 50cc piston. In fact I have my orig. piston on my bench as a reminder of what it was. There has been alot of mention of my scoot being an Immigrant . Maybe I should be hauling a$$ to THE motherland. La Cuccaracha aye! What do Canadinites say? Oh yeah... Happy dios de la morte! Or is that French???
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I don't know about the happy dios, maybe that was the honda connection. I'll go outside and put the 140 jet in and see what effect that has.
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It was an outside pun. Dios meaning day. Happy day of the dead is the translation I was going for. Get It? Say Knock Knock!
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Knock~knock
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Tried the 140 jet with needle at lowest setting, no good, bogging as turn throttle. the best today was 130 jet with needle at second lowest setting which it is at now. on Monday will get 132 &133 jets and see how that goes. The needle in this carb is 56.8mm.
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the 133 is my guess. Hey slinger watch this... Who's There?
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Isabell
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Isabell. . . Who?
Sounds like you are getting closer! At least now you have a range to work with! You will find that magic number between 130 & 140. Try to focus on getting the WOT/main jet set first, then address the mid-range and needle height/taper. You may need to do 1/2 or 3/4 throttle plug chops once you get the WOT sorted. The easiest way I found to do that is to take some masking tape and wrap it around the grip. Mark off 0 throttle, full throttle, then split the difference into 1/4's. This way you can easily replicate the exact same throttle position for your test runs.
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Tell Isabell her MOMMA left her pager on the nite stand...
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Yeah, I will get a 133 on Monday and see how that goes.
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...isabell WHO???
...i can't thinkk of aything good....
..dang hippie grass....
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Isabel really necessary on a bike?
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Why don't elephants ride bicycles?
They don't have a thumb to ring the bell.
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G'Day All, put a 132 jet in this morning, seems to have lost performance and also reduced top end. Plug looks rusty.
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130 my be the one to go with. The 132 may be a little safer though. I've heard somewhere to find the "best running" jet and go one size larger to be on the safe side. The performance may have been better because it was running lean. The lean running condition will give more ummph, but the engine won't last as long. This is good for racing, but not daily driving. Was the noise still there with the 132 jet?
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Buy rusty do you mean color or texture? I agree w shaka on being slightly rich vs. lean. Maybe a 131 would be a good compromise. That's why I prefer to cut/solder my own. You would really have nothing to lose by opening one of your smaller jets. also have you tried lowering the needle w/ the 132. the other sugestion would be try the 130 w/ a colder plug. you can try 1-2 ranges colder to really get it dialed in. That will also help reduce the possibility of detonation. sounds like you are just about there tho. Have you checked the jug for any further damage yet?
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G'day, No I haven't check the jug yet, would rather wait for a new head gasket as I have allredy had it off once before, though I may try again later. With the 132 jet the noise was still there, but just to see what would happen I raised the needle to the next notch and I reckon by playing with the gearing could get a reasonable compromise with performance. By rusty I meant the colour but that was an old plug, I tried to upload a picture of it but was unable to, something about the upload folder being full.
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Your pict. may have been over the size limit. Not dimensions but the file size. I have a hell of a time getting picts. to post. Shaka mentioned running 2 base gaskets to drop the compression a bit. that may be worth a try as well as a colder plug. The hard part is tuning w/ out destroying it. once you get the set up It's Miller Time.
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G'Day zombie, I dont think it is the size as it is a different message. I took the scoot to work last night and was not as good as I thought, wanting to cut out when backing off when cold. I will change the plug today, put the 132 jet in tomorrow and like you and Shaka suggest, I will cut another gasket. I took the exhaust off yesterday to replace the tyre so I had a look in the ex. port with a torch and a mirror. Though there were signs of heat on the piston there didnt seem to be any visible damage. with these changes I want to do them 1 at a time so I know what is doing what.
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That's the right approach. Do you know if it was too rich, and trying too stall, or too lean and not getting a "charge" to fire. Did it just pick back up w/ throttle, or sputter then pick up?
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By the way, the tyre I put on was a Continental "Conti Twist", 120/70/12. (standard size).
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I changed the plug, went for a ride no real change, gave in to temptation and changed the jet, though it is not as snappy it is all round better so I will leave it for a day or so. When it died off it would pick up with throttle and quite snappily so, in answer to your question I think too lean, maybe 130 is a little small. with the 132 in now I reckon it might be worth regaining the extra response by gearing but this is all new to me. I will try to put up a pic of the plug that came out.
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I think you are about right with the jet, but your getting some detonation at full throttle. I think you need to either put in a 2nd base or head gasket to lower the compression. You my need to play with the jetting again after adjust the jug. I would go for the 2nd head gasket if your happy with the port timing. If you put in a second base gasket keep in mind you will be raising the ports slightly. It may be best to pull the head and see what your port exposure is towards the bottom of the stroke. I think either gasket will solve your detonation problem, but one will give performance than the other! Also have you checked your compression recently? That plug is kinda a funny color, I've never seen mine that color. Are you running any other fuel additives? Those will make some funny colors sometimes.
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Well, I dont know anything about port timing but I am sure you will enlighten me in time. no fuel additives, maybe a little hot? will have a look at plug tomorrow. I wik gowith the base gasket as I can cut it myself and not wait a week for it in the post
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Sounded too lean. Try the 130, and lower the needle. Give it a run at full throttle w a new plug. then you can start tuning down the range from there. My idea is once you get the wot dialed in it is a matter of finding the needle position. I think the color is from either the brand of oil or a detonation front right under the plug. raising the jug will stop that. Just to be sure tho I saw a cool tip on scoot invasionusein a thread of solder wicked in thru the spark plug hole. The idea is to get the solder to the edge of the cylinder, and rotate the engine to squish the solder. That will show how much clearance there is between the piston. and the head. (squish band) use a very thin piece as shaka and I both think you may not have enough clearance there. It should be between .5-1.0mm (.8mm being best). this last bit will take a lot of guess work out.
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My bad. Do the solder bit before moving the jug.
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That sounds like a good idea, will try that tonight. With the 130 jet the needle was at the lowest setting. is at the lowest setting now with the132.
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Tried the "squish test" with a piece of solder 1.21mm thick, no squash, tried to get all areas of cylinder but no "squish so must be plenty of clearance.
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The oil I am using is Fuchs Silkolene Scoot 2.
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I'd get some strange looks if I'd ask for that oil in the US. :o
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yeah, I did too, until I found out the correct pronunciation.
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That's odd you couldn't get any squish measurement! I don't understand what that noise you're hearing is if it's not detonation? Are you sure you were getting the solder all the way to the edge of the piston? From looking at the pics of your plugs, I don't think you are running lean enough to cause it with greater than 1.2mm of squish. I've been wrong before though! Hey, maybe I'll learn something new when you figure it out! ;)
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Yeah, Im satisfied i got it to the edge, and tried in a few places around the cylinder. the noise is not loud but gets louder as engine gets warmer. the noise is not there under load but when backing off and just slight deceleration.
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When I had it it was only at WOT when the rpm's got to a certain point. I think yours sounds like it is in the top of the mid-range. I would think raising the needle would fix it. You might want to do a plug chop at 3/4 throttle, or whatever throttle postion it makes that noise in, and see if it's lean. See if you can replicate that noise for long enough to hold it there and see what the plug looks like. You may end up having to go with a differently tapered needle. One where it's fatter at the top and skinnier at the base, with a shorter taper length.
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I'd get some strange looks if I'd ask for that oil in the US. :o
Btw. "(der) Fuchs" is a fox in German.
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Righto, been at it again, 135 jet just for the sake of trying, not real good. The night before last going to work on a fairly good downhill run at around 80 kmh with the 130 jet started surging until I backed
off but coming home in the morning along a different route (long slight uphill) held 80 quite well.
Last night going to work with the 132 jet down the same downhill run surge was still there but not nearly as much. Today I tried the 135 jet and bogging too much at wide open, lower top speed (struggle to make 80), so tried a 48 pilot jet (original was 45) but no real improvement. I have now gone back to the 130 main with the 48 pilot to see how that goes. Unfortunately I don't know where to get any needles from. What I forgot to mention was I put the needle up 1 notch to the second lowest before any jet changes today. Tomorrow I will get some more plugs and do some chops if I get a chance, w.o.t., 1/2 and 3/4 throttle and see what that shows. My lack of experience is showing and am trying some experimenting with the jets, (must be frustrating for you blokes on the other side of the world).
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Sid, persistence feeds the bulldog!
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Okay, going to work last night when I stopped I heard a rather loud rattle at idle, so, when I got home this morning I pulled the jug to check, would rather a cracked piston than a bent conrod. Compression only 95psi. Cylinder and piston show heat colouration as would expect with my poor setting up initially. The piston was ok apart from some scores down the skirts. I did a squish test without the head gasket and got a rough measurement of 1.17mm. (using 1.2mm solder), head gasket is 0.52mm. When I put it back together I stripped the thread on one of the head bolts (stripped the thread in the crankcase), so off to buy some recoils, that done I got it back together. The rattle is still there, is there anything behind the flywheel/stator that could come loose? I am hoping that is all it is. I have taken pics of the bits and will try to get them up a little bit later.
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Hey Calothrix, sometimes I think the bulldog is feeding on me. Shall persevere, is a little frustrating but rewarding none the less.
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I would order another piston for starters. The squish also has to come down to .8mm to get the performance the kit was made for so a head shave is in order. 1mm off the head should do it. These kits are close from the factory but due to machining tolerances they are not all in perfect shape. I had .5mm taken off my malossi. There is nothing behind the stator but it may be the flywheel itself. It cannot hurt to pull it apart, and re check it all. There are 2 other possibilities, The rollers, and a resonance from the pipe. You may be hearing an echo from the cyl. in the pipe. Try wrapping some of that header insulating cloth around the first 12-15" of the header tube to see if that is it. I crashed my computer (again) , and missed the "fuchs". Keep at it w/ a smile! Once it is done you will love it. If you give up and sell it, the next guy will put in a plug tighten a bolt, and have a Fuchin' kick a$$ scoot. Did that needle ever get there? I just thought about it today!
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Yeah mate, the needle got here complete with your hound's DNA, sorry, but I havent gotten around to sending it back yet, will get onto that soon, the rattle is not an echo through the exhaust, it is deffinately coming from the engine, I only heard it for the first time last night, I have this weekend off, so I will pull it apart then and see what I find. With having put in a larger pilot jet yesterday, Original was 45, new one is 48, could that cause bogging at full open throttle, I sort of got into a bit of a do~it frenzy, (I blame it on night shift).
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All good. The pilot does nothing after 1/2 throttle. It is way good to have it rich on these scoots tho. You want to here the engine firing when you are at speed and, let off the throttle. When you have it opened up check for any play in the crank bearing. They are tough as heck but could be worn/damaged. 48 sounds good for the pilot cause I had a 44 in a 28mm delorto that was too small. so I think I am at 46ish now.
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Yeah I just had to give it a go, if ya dont try/ya dont learn, the main jet is dead set simple to change, the pilot jet is a bit different, you can see it through the plug hole, you can almost get a screwdriver onto it but you can't get it out without removing the bowl. This scoot has just clocked over 14,000 kms last week.
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The km's don't matter as much as what the scoot has been thru. Even a grain of sand sized bit of trash is enough to trash a bearing. Not to worry you, just throwing ideas!
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Yeah, not the best scenario but if it needs new bearings then I will replace them, just another excuse to buy or make more tools. This is the photo of the head, though it looks like the piston was touching it there are no marks on the piston crown. I may be able to get some more pics on.
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The photo w/ the scoring on the piston; Is that the exhaust side? How does the dome look? is it still smooth, or is there a rough patch on it?
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All that crap cleaned off the side with wd40 and 600 wet and dry. the piston crown looked good, an even coat accross, black, if anything I would say a little rich but that does not go with what we saw on the plug. what do you think of the clean patch on the head?
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I cant see anything. Maybe slinger can dl, and fix it up. There is too much clearance for the piston to have hit it. Is it symmetrical? Or maybe just a hot spot? I wish I new how to use photo editing software. I'll save it, and try to figure it out.
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Here is another pic of the head, hopefully a bit larger.
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Have a happy Easter everyone ,be careful and stay safe.
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I don't see any "impact" marks! 2 things I do see are the clean spot on the head is where the electrode is facing, and starting your burn. Your flame front is bouncing off the top of the cylinder, and hitting the fuel from the opposite side from the squish zone. That is most likely the biggest factor in the detonation problem. If you mill 1mm off the head it will force the timing of these two fronts closer together, and lessen the effect. Also "index your plug". That means using a copper shim instead of the "gasket" that comes on the plug. You want to have the electrode facing right at the exhaust port. That will prevent 2 separate flame fronts. I know this sounds like a bunch of hi tech. hog wash, but in fact I believe that is what is happening inside your cyl.. The main cause is the increased bore, and no increase in stroke. There is a much larger surface area to allow these opposing forces to develop. Give that a shot, and I think w/ the jetting where you have it your troubles will be over.
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Ahh, not hog wash at all, I agree with the plug direction, though I had no real understanding of the tech. side of it, my view was more simplistic. Being good friday I will have to wait until tuesday to get some shim. Thanks for all this, I an learning a lot that I should have known a long time ago.
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It's all good my brother! Happy Easter Bunny Birthday...
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Tried plug indexing this morning but all I could find on hand was another plug washer, this got the plug to facing the right hand side. Not quite there but will keep trying. I dont know if it is running any better but it seems a little quicker but that may be due to the new variator I put on this morning (see different size variator in tech. section). Breaking all the rules but resistance is kinda low when the parts are just sitting there mocking you. :)
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I feel ya on the parts. The var certianly helped more than the plug. A plumbing supply house may have the copper gasket/shim you need, or bring a few extra old plug gaskets to a machine shop w/ a press, and have them flattened to different thicknesses. Getting the combustion chamber working right is the most important thing you can do .
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Cheers zombie, will keepat it.
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With regards to the rattle, I tried to take the flywheel off but no go without the correct puller. After replacing the variator rattle is gone completely, zombie you were right on the money about echo, the noise was barely audible on the drive side but loud on the other side, almost as though the flywheel was amplifying the sound. Glad that one is sorted without extra cost.
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G'Day zombie, I was going through some pics I took through this job and found one of the piston. The mark on the piston crown was from an extension bar.
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Those rough spots are from Detonation. I can also see the jug is way high. Is the piston at tcd in the photo? With the plug indexed, and the head shaved I think it will all come together. Replace the piston, and rings once you get the other sorted out. That piston will work as a spare, but I wouldn't run it as it has been made brittle from the excessive heat. Try to find an aluminum base gasket that is thiner than the .51mm paper one. That will reduce the amount to mill off the head also. You're on the verge tho Bro!. I see the light at the end of the tunnel from here!
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I honestly couldn't tell you whether it was tdc or not, I would have to pull it apart and do it again. Would an aluminium gasket be nessecary, or could I just cut one from paper? I will order a new piston and head gasket. I would have to check but I think the base gasket may have been a bit thicker than .51. Cheers mate this is enormous help.
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The optimum is to have the edge of the piston = top of the jug. That way the Squish is = to the recess in the head. Using a thinner/thicker base gasket will even that out for you. I know... One more thing to loose sleep over! It sounds like you are having good results from the kit tho. It may be my next set-up.
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Not losing any sleep over it, I am at the point now where I can enjoy the results and still make improvements. I am about to order a new piston and two head gaskets but am wondering whether I should just buy another complete kit. I now have the exhaust and carb and a bit of practice, the original one would be used as spare. Points to ponder. By lowering the barrel that will alter the port timing, but I have no idea which way, would it be better to shave the top of the barrell? How do you determine the port timing anyway???
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There are some good threads on timing on scooter invasion. Also even better are the Two stroke tuners handbook, and Two stroke tuning. I posted links on here somewhere, and lost mine in a firey P2P crash. Shaving the jug to me is a big step. Most of the timing corrections can be done thru porting, and shims. Simply cleaning any sloppy edges, and matching the transfer ports to the case. is enough for a daily driver, with a lot more zip. Full blown port jobs will add a few more hp/torque, then reliability does suffer. Many people will swear otherwise but life span of the parts is proportianal to power output. I find it easiest to fit the parts to work within the specs. Match the jug to the stroke, match the piston to the head, match the pipe to the rpm range of the jug, and tune the carb to supply the fuel. If you were to get another kit, the first one would make a cool drag set-up. Peak out the timming from the info in the 2 books I mentioned (I think they are under the General section), mill one head to .3-.5mm, swap out the jug and clutch springs for Drag Day. I just wouldn't drive it every day. I've got 2/12 years on my kit w/ one new piston/rings, and the only other replaced parts are the cvt springs, and belt. To ME 70=mph is too fast for the factory frame. Just my opinion tho. If you gots the Cajones... GO FOR IT! Oh yeah Timing is measured w/ a degree wheel attached to the crank w/ the head off, and the jug torqued down. You measure the point a given port opens, and compare that to the point it closes. That will = the duration of the port. There are formulas in the books that give the optimum opening point, and duration timing for each port. Things like overlap or stagger of the ports is also important. It all turns into the Phyisics of the 2t engine which is pretty cool to see why it all does what it does.
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Good explanation Zombie! I know all that stuff, but it's still hard to write it in a clear, concise way! I've got new piston rings and another base gasket for mine. I just haven't had the time to really delve into the finer points of two stoke tuning yet! Hopefully I will get a chance to start on optimizing my engine porting later in the week!
Ps. I guess at this point I'll start a new thread, but variator notching experiment = FAIL!
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AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!! Was the var too small? Did you get the same Jug kit? Are we there yet? I gotta go ...to the doo!
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Thanks zombie, it is all a bit over my head, though there is no reason not to learn. I just went with the piston set, (get it running right first) I think reliability is more important than straight line speed, for my intended use anyway. I did read a bit of the 2~stroke tuners handbook, that was what made me realise the exhaust would have been a major part of my problem, I am trying to make the book a little more accessible so I can have a decent read of it. My computer is not crashing, it is just having heart attack after heart attack. I would like to get another crankcase to experiment with to learn what to do and how to do it, the only problem is there are not many here and from overseas it costs an arm and a leg in shipping. An Avon Viper Stryke tyre from England was about 40pounds, shipping to Aus. was 70pounds.
Did you have a look at the writeup in zx50 section? If so do you think I missed anything?
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Oh yeah I did Bro! We appreciate the Kudos. You even got another person to post their first. That's the coolest part of the forum for me. Everyone has their own experience, and tips to bring to the table. There is something else I noticed in your Pict. The burn marks on the piston dome are in line w/ the transfer ports. That reinforces the jug is too high, and not closing the ports soon enough. The heat on the piston may be igniting the charge before it gets compressed. These little bits are all adding up to a well tuned kit tho. Get the jug lowered, and re measure the squish. That will modify the mill that should be done. If you can get a gasket down to .02mm that would take another .03 of the mill spec bringing it to .07. I think in ball park #'s you would be around .06-.08 squish. See what you can get for the base gasket, re-measure, and we'll take it from there. Heres another tip: I used a friends Band saw table, and 600 grit emory cloth w/ PB Blaster as a lube to shave .5mm of my head. I checked the table for true w/ a straight edge, put the cloth down, and rubed in a circular motion, It only took 20 minutes from start to finish.
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I have ordered the piston kit which has gaskets with it, but I think I will hit the auto parts store for some gasket paper to lower the jug, though I am a bit dubious taking it apart again without replacing the head gasket, I think it has been 3 times already. See, what you are reading from the photo I have no idea about, but again, is all learning. I don't have a band saw but at work I could stay back on A/S and use a drill table or similar for that.
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Sid- I have taken my head off a bunch of times without replacing the gasket. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about it. I think the next thing you need is a leak down tester! It's about the only way to tell for sure! Maybe I'll get around to posting pics of that soon too! ;)
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A drill press table is just as good. Just MAKE SURE it is FLAT. The transfer ports are the holes inside the jug on the sides. When you lower the piston in the jug see if the burn marks line up w/ the holes. That will tell if the jug needs lowering. (I think it does). You will most likely not find thin enough gasket paper, but aluminum will work fine w/ a good sealer. Permatex/Indian Shellac/OMC Perfect seal...I have used beer/soda cans for gasket stock dozens of times. You MUST use a sealer tho
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What about permatex aviation form a gasket under the jug with no gasket? would be the lowest we could get.
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Righto, removed gasket from under jug, piston sits about 1~2 mm above, so that has answered my previous question. Previous gasket was 0.81mm after having been in service, new gasket is 0.4mm prior to service, piston is almost flush, perhaps just proud but not by enough for me to measure. Will try to put some pics up.
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Here is a pic of the head
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Took scooter for a ride and performance is down quite a bit detonation is at it's worst. After installing the thinner gasket there was still no squish reading using the 1.2mm solder, checked at 4 points, 1 at each bolt. I have been reading Gordon Jennings' 2~Stroke Tuner's Handbook, though a lot of it is way above me it is giving me a much better understanding of the workings of the engine, thanks for the link zombie. Am now waiting for the engine to cool enough to remove the head and try trimming the face a little.
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Jennings book is great! I wouldn't recommend trying to change anything until you have a good understanding of what he is saying though! If it makes you feel any better, I don''t have a full grasp of his entire concepts yet! I'm working on it though! I would be leery of shaving the head before I knew for sure that is what was really necessary to meet the formulas Jennings set forth. To me shaving the head is something that should only be done if you know exactly what you are doing. It is something irreversible that if done too far cannot be un-done! I have no problem doing what Jennings formulas call for, but I would not attempt to "half ass" meet my vague understanding them! I don't mean to scare you out of tuning your scoot, but only to have a good understanding of what you are doing, and do it right! Good luck Sid!!!
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No, I'm not trying to follow his formulas, I dont have the mathematical skill, just trying to get the scoot sorted. today was an experiment, tomorrow I will raise the jug a little higher to see what happens
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When you measure the piston height the jug as to be bolted down. That will compress the base gasket, and give the tru reading. I don't understand how the sqiush could not be measured tho. You could try taping a piece of solder across the head, torquing the head down, and checking that way. The compression on that jug may be wicked high to begin w/ and that would explain the detonation returning. Have you done a compression test on this set up? Try those 2 things, and post back.
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After removing the head the piston was about .5mm above the gasket face, used feeler gauges. put solder on piston at 4 points and torqued head down. given the drop in performance tomorrow I was thinking of raising the jug a little higher than it was previously, just for experiment. with this set I have only ever got 95psi but that may be the battery was not strong enough, tomorrow I will try with a drill. I am starting to feel like a gynaecologist. (a scooter one, that is).
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I'm following a thread on Scoot invasion that is a 250cc kit, and Josh is just about to scrap the supplied jug as the timings on it are all out of wack. Check out the progress on that to see if you are using a similar kit. I give you alot of credit as you are sticking w/ it, and starting to see how it all works. The 95 psi bothers me tho! It should be over 100-110. With the piston sitting proud of the jug, it makes no sense to me that you can't measure the squish. Have you tried turning the engine over by hand? This just may turn out to be a mis match on the con rod/piston for the jug timming. You can keep trying to adjust the jug height to get the best compromise from it tho.
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Yeah, I think the supplied gasket may be the best but I just feel like I gotta at least try, after all, if it is no good, I can allways go back. that sounds interesting, I will have a look. I will stick with it, though it can be a little frustrating it is good to get results. I may have done more damage on initial setup than I thought, but I only have my self to blame, call it learning. for what it is worth, we had a little bit of rain the other night, the road was wet, I did not in my wildest dreams expect any wheel spin, but I sure got some!
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Did a comp. test before removing the gasket, 120psi using the kick starter. Tried both gaskets but was way too high so went back to the original one. Detonation is still there, not as bad but is definately there, must be from rubbing the head down at a guess, so I will try to find a thicker shim for a gasket.
After putting the original gasket back was about 110psi but that was without the exhaust ( I don't know if that will make any difference). So on it goes, it feels as though the engine has a lot more to give than I am getting from it, I just have to try to figure out how, with my lack of experience it could take a while.
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110-120 is just fine. Can u post a photo of the pipe? You shouldn't be guessing at these mods. .05mm is alot to be off by. and that can be done in an instant. If at some point u can put a piece of paper inside the jug, and trace the edges of all the openings by rubbing w/ a crayon or such maybe we can get down to the exact set up on paper for your kit. The tracing has to stay steady as these will be measured to the 1'000TH to figure what it needs. I posted a 250cc when it is a 125cc. It seems the detonation is the only BIG issue left for you. the pipe may have something to do w/ it along w/ the port timings. Have faith Brother. You're too close.
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Yeah mate I saw that 125, and yes it does look rather similar to mine, what part of the exhaust do you want to see? inlet pipe or output side? With tracing the inside of the cylinder I wouldn't know what it should be, as you said it is very accurate measurements. From reading Gordon Jennings book all that maths is way over my head. I can still do the trace if you want it, though probably not until Tuesday as I go to work early tomorrow.
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Any time. Once you get it traced do you have access to a dial caliper set? You will set the piston to bottom dead center, cut the paper to fit to the top of the jug, hold it in place w/ some tape, and trace away. I really want to get a ball park where the ports fall in relation to the piston at BDC. Just a general pict of the pipe, or the link to it. I wanted to see if it an expansion pipe or baffled. It should match the jug as it was sold as such but u never know. It may be forcing burning mix back into the jug. Just another thought.
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Weeell, I sorta jumped the gun a little, I traced the ports and put it all back together, I took a measurement from ports to top of cylinder but not from piston. I will attach a pic of the paper. When I put it back together I used both gaskets, I bolted the barrel down aqnd the piston is a little shy of the top but not by much, I couldn't get anything with the feeler gauges. The detonation is gone, but performance is a little down. I took a couple of pics of the barrel and will have a look, I think it might be the same as the one Josh is working with.
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Right, here is the pic of the barrel marking.
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Pic of the exhaust, I expect the expansion chamber would be part of the canister??
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You are the best sid. This will help alot. The port map! Is the piston sitting at the bottom of the paper, or did you remove the jug to trace it?
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Jug was sitting on the table, the measurement was as best I could get, couldnt find a ruler to fit and I didnt know you wanted the bdc measure. I will get it tomorrow.
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On the pipe can you see any tack welds indicating there are baffles inside the pipe? I think another issue is the sound wave that would normally empty the cylinder is bouncing off the back of the pipe, and forcing hot/burning gases back into the jug. A few 3/8" holes drilled into the end may relieve that but I would like a second opinion. I'm gonna invite Josh to take a look at this thread, and get his input if he will be kind enough to share some of his thinned out time w/ it.
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Thanks, that would be very much appreciated. I have asked customx22 for a pic of his pipe, I think it may be the same as mine, and he may be able to shed some light on it.
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It will depend on the jug more than anything else. The pipe may work GREAT on one jug, and not at all on another. You have HUGE ports in your jug. Just for comparison you could try to reinstall your stock pipe w/ all else being the same, and see what happens. Ie detonation, torque ect.
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I think that was the problem when I first put that kit on, holding back the gas and over heating. the original pipe is for a much smaller engine.
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The ex. port is 34mm, the trans. ports are 13 and 20mm, the boost? port is 22mm across.
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Agreed the stock pipe would not allow the gases out fast enough. Maybe the new pipe is pushing it back in...? You are there tho!
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Allright, I have done another port trace with some measurements this time.
The measurements above are the distance from the top of the piston,
On the inlet port I have got 3 measures because of the wave in the cast.
The measures inside are the width of the port. Hope this helps.
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Yes, 40 mm back from the end plate there is a series of spot welds.
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Sid, the distance from the piston at BDC is not really an important measurement. Unless you want to get into changing the port heights the only measurement you really need is the deck height and the squish clearance. I think Zombie was more asking for a pic of the inside of the cylinder with the piston at BDC. It really only matters if the ports are not fully exposed, or there is a large gap beneath them. Those would be tell tale signs there is something "off" with the porting. I have been doing a lot of reading lately on port mapping because I am about to do some modifications to my cylinder. I probably won't change any of my port heights unless they are way off, but I am going to clean up the transfer tunnels, exhaust port, and match the case to the jug. I also want to make sure my squish clearance is set right. That is the main reason I'm going to pull it all apart again. I just want to make a spacer to set the jug at the right height. Here is a good link to how to do some good port maps. It's very in-depth, but you just need to get the jist of it all. http://www.macdizzy.com/cyl_primer.htm. (http://www.macdizzy.com/cyl_primer.htm.) Here's another good one on measuring deck height, http://www.2strokeheads.com/tech1.htm (http://www.2strokeheads.com/tech1.htm)
I think Zombie may be onto something with looking for the spot welds! It sounds like there may be some type of restrictor in your exhaust. Is it 40mm from the inlet or outlet side? If it's the inlet, you should be able to see something in there. It could just be a washer that needs to be ground out. Did you get any info on the pipe? Post a pic if you can.
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G'Day Shaka, the spot welds are 40 from the end plate at the back of the exhaust. I thought zombie wanted the measurements from the piston at b.d.c. When I lowered the barrel I had an enormous increase in detonation and a large drop in power, I did rub the head down a little with some 400 wet and dry and finished with 1200. When I restored the original base gasket the detonation was still there but not as bad, I put a 0.4mm gasket in with the original one and detonation is now gone but power is still a little off. I was thinking of going back to the original base gasket and using a second head gasket, (when I say original I mean the one supplied with the kit). Using a piece of solder that is 1.2mm thick I can't get any squash between the head and piston, which seems strange from what zombie is saying and what I have read in Gordon jennings book. With this set it may not be what is right but what works.?.
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When the piston is at BDC are the ports fully exposed, or is there a gap between the bottom of the ports and the top of the piston? That is weird you are getting detonation with a large squish. I am wondering if the shape of the combustion chamber in the head is too small? Next time you take the head off take a pic.
If the spot welds are at the back of the exhaust it may just be holding on the outer canister to the inner expansion chamber. For that matter, I guess we aren't even positive that it is an expansion chamber design. I would be trying to contact the manufacturer if you can figure out who and get some clarification!
Hopefully Zombie comes up with some porting software soon, hint hint! ;) I think we could both use it! I will buy one probably by Tuesday if all else fails and can run some numbers for you. Once I figure out how to use it that is! ;)
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I do have some pics of the head on this thread. the ports are not fully exposed, the top of the piston is just above the bottom of them. the exhaust is the one the seller recommended, hmm, seller.
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Oh yeah, forgot about the head pics. I just re-looked. I see that your piston has a positive deck height also. I'm not certain on this, but I've done a lot of reading. Most people don't like to run a positive deck height! It usually makes things screwy with the squish and the combustion chamber volume. Which I thing is exactly what you are experiencing! It's also not good to have the ports not fully open at BDC. The piston should ideally sit at the bottom edge of the ports. I'm hoping you are not running into the same problem as Josh over at Scooter Invasion. He is talking about scraping the cylinder before even installing it because the port timings are so far off they are not fixable! I think he may have a cylinder by the same manufacture as yours.
If you can take some real precise measurements, I'm sure we could get one of the guys on SI to run the numbers through the software for you. You may end up have to raise the jug up to get rid of the positive deck and allow the ports to fully open. Then either run with no head gasket and/or shave the head to bring the squish down to where it needs to be. You may also either have to run a different head or have the combustion enlarged a bit depending on how much may need to be shaved.
The measurements I think you need to run the numbers are deck height, squish, port heights from the top most edge to the top of the cylinder, port opening height (from bottom edge to top edge), and possibly head gasket thickness. Ideally, you want these measurements to the tenth of a mm.
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The piston should be lined up with the bottom of the ports. If it is lower then there is a small zone where nothing is happening. If you put a degree wheel on it you will see the total duration of wasted energy in the cycle. Turn that into percentage of the cycle, and you will see how much it will impact performance. My ex wife has been staying at the house (?) so I haven't had the opportunity to focus on the forum the way I should. Sorry Guys. I promise to get on this tonight, and figure how to correct the worst of it. I can see on your pipe how hot the engine is running. Sid can you put some #'s on the map. Distance from the top of the ports to the top of the jug will help alot. Also if you have access to a good welder, adding another exit tube to your pipe will cancel some of the resonance that I believe is pushing burning gases back into the jug. My guess is there is a cone shaped baffle inside. They make a taper on expansion pipes to allow the gases to expand as the travel. The tube shape on yours allows for a flash expansion that just may be bouncing back because it cannot get out fast enough. I just saw the post w/ the #'s. I'll look at it and get back
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http://www.scooterinvasion.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2028&start=0 (http://www.scooterinvasion.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2028&start=0) Here is the thread for the build josh is undertaking. It is the same Manufacture. Something here may click w/ your build sid. You may have to set up an account/user name to see the photos.
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Thanks a lot zombie, I have an arc welder but that may be a bit crude, could give it a go though. I have seen the pics, Josh has posted them here and I have seen them on scooter invasion, there is a whole lot of sweet looking gear going into that one, I hope he doesnt have to scrap the jug.
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I was thinking of all the work he did to match the jug to the cases. I don't believe there is another "bolt on" 125cc kit available. I think an arc welder is too much for the stamped steel, but I am not proficient enough w/ one to make that call. Hold off on that for the moment to get the jug sorted out anyway. The main focus should be figuring out the Squish for now. If you can bring that to approx. .8-1.0mm you can then work on raising or lowering the jug to where the ports work best. Lets say you have NO gasket on the base, and 3mm gasket on the top; (squish set to 1mm) You can then transfer gaskets to the bottom, and mark the results. It will be working in a predictable pattern that you can control. Once you get the best from that you can get into modding the pipe.
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Sid, If you're not getting the ports fully exposed, then wouldn't running no base gasket as Zombie suggested make the problem worse and make the piston stick out the top of the cylinder even more? Seems that way to me. It may get your squish where you need it, but throw off the port timings even further. You should try taking a squish measurement with a thicker piece of solder to see exactly where it sits right now. That will give you a better idea of how much needs to be changed to get it right.
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G'Day zombie and Shaka, when I tried with no gasket the piston was out the top a quite a lot, (I must learn to measure), the base gasket I am using now is the original plus a 0.4, after having been in service they compressed to 0.88mm, my new piston kit turned up today and the new gasket is 0.72mm unused. Yesterday I took some photos of the piston at b.d.c. with the jug bolted down, I will post these for you but it may take a couple of posts due to size restrictions.
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Here is pic no. 2 (trying again)
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Annd, pic 3, exhaust.
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That's much better than I thought. The reason I suggested lowering the jug, is sid had stated the scoot ran better with the jug higher. I am thinking the squish will be easier to set if all stays relative. Don't run it w/ the jug down just try to find the squish. Then transfer the thickness to the bottom , and remove from the top. The known squish will remain, and the jug timing will change to the range that is working for him. I would try too work this out w/ the current piston, and save the new one for a more proven set up.
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Idk, doesn't look too good either. I bet it would run much better with the ports fully exposed! I agree with setting the squish first and then adjusting to the bottom of the jug to correct the port timings. I just have a feeling that to be set up properly, the jug needs to be shaved on the top and the gaskets below need to be thicker to achieve the optimum squish. Gotta get some accurate measurements and do some math! I'm going to tear down my engine and take some measurements and see where I sit tomorrow afternoon. I'll have a porting program by tomorrow evening, at least that's my goal. If you can give me some numbers Sid, I'd be happy to crunch them for you!
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Hi, you have lost me, if we find the squish and transfer that to the bottom that will raise the jug, at the moment the piston is very close to flush (just a little shy). the piston is about 1 - 2 mm above the bottom of the trans. ports.
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Right on Shaka!
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Set the squish w/ no base gasket and = to the difference of the piston/transfers (That 1-2mm) Then you will have 1.5 or so mm to play with. If it ran well with 2 base gaskets just say .9mm then subtract that from the head side = 1.1mm, and you will still have the squish where you need it. all you are doing at that point is altering the jug timing, and keeping the squish. There are loads of spacers available to further adjust if you need higher numbers or lower squish, but you have to start somewhere.
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G'Day, I have managed to get a squish measure, with no base gasket, no head gasket the squish is 0.51~0.55, reads from 2 points.
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That's a start! You should be able to figure out how much to shave off the head and/or jug now.
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G'Day zombie and Shaka, I am sorry if I have got this wrong, but would it be better to raise the jug to have the piston level with the bottom of the ports and then shave the top back to the piston?
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It really depends on the top of the port measurements. The duration of the port opening is the actual important measurement. You have the right idea though! I'm going to download the software and I'll run your rough numbers hopefully this afternoon.
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That's GREAT sid! How thick is the head gasket you used to get the measure? From that you will know whatever you raise the jug by the equal will have to come off the head! Lets let shaka punch some #'s, and see what it says your set up is doing. W/ the indexing, and squish set, and your knowing the kit ran best w/ the jug raised the #'s will give the rest of the set up. I do see the light~go into the light baby~No wait Don't go into the light! Anyone there? Mommy??? Daddy???
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In the first chapter of Bell's book it talks about cylinder head design. I remember something about If you shave a certain amount off the head you have to increase the size of the combustion chamber to re-equalize the compression ratio. There is a formula to figure out how much. That is something an experienced head maker/tuner would have to do though. I don't want to get Sid in over his head! Pun intended! ;)
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No Doubt! I read but didn't see. No head gasket. W/ .5, and a .5mm gasket you are almost perfect on the head/squish. A .3mm head gasket would be PERFECT. Forget about shaving the jug. Too much $'s/trouble. From this point raising the jug to where you need it, and shaving the head to = the base gaskets will be the most direct route. If you find it runs well w/ out further shaving of the head all the better. There is always a line where it all goes back to $hit. But w/ these constants figured it will be MUCH easier to recover using shims, and gaskets.
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If I read it all right, it was .5mm with no head or base gasket. I think the best plan of attack assuming that your gaskets are .5mm like mine, is to shave .5mm off the head and run one .5mm base and one .5mm head gasket. That should raise the ports so they are closer to the top of the piston and leave a squish of .8mm.
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...man...ya'll need to get a 4t....
;D
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We ALL need better JOBS!!! Or maybe a benefactor, so as to play scoots all day. While my ex was here I was playing Lamb's in the basement... Never got the lotion back...
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...been kinda following this thread...
..all this talk about jugs, and shaving and squishing....
...dang....
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We ALL need better JOBS!!! Or maybe a benefactor, so as to play scoots all day. While my ex was here I was playing Lamb's in the basement... Never got the lotion back...
What we need is someone to pay us for playing scoots all day! Don't you wanna jump on board Slinger? We're getting all sorts of technical up in this one!
Not sure what lambs in the basement means? Not really sure I wanna!
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Silence of the Lambs... It puts the lotion in the basket! PUT THE F"IN LOTION IN THE BASKET!!! Can't un learn that one...
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Oh got ya! :D Making sure you weren't hiding out in the basement with a bottle of lotion all weekend!!! ;)
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G'Day all, Have been at it again, scoot in bits again, I have taken some measurements, about the best I can get so far. I have included a pic. The top numbers are distance from top of port to top of cylinder, The second numbers are the distance from the bottom of the port to top of cylinder, the numbers at the bottom are the port widths (with paper laid out flat), the numbers along side the ports are the pot height and the line through is the piston at 41mm (depending on the base gasket, I think it was the one gasket). You blokes are going to a lot of effort on this and it is much appreciated.
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It's no trouble at all sid. This tuning stuff can get disastrous real quick! On the flip side is the reward when you get it right... Now as too getting it right; That jug is a F'ing hand-grenade! The reason it's soo hot is there is no real transfer of gases. It looks to me as if it is more of a re-cycler than a pump! What did you mean by the piston at 41mm ? Is that the piston at bottom dead center? If so I cannot believe it ran at all! Not to scare you after all this work... We have to see where the piston is at BDC
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G'Day zombie, if that is the way it is then so be it. I just hate for you blokes to be going through all this and then scrap it. Yes, that was the piston at b.d.c., so, does this mean start again with a new cylinder?
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Much better measurements! I got the porting software this evening and I've been trying to figure out how to use it. ;) Now I have some more numbers to play with. I also need your deck height to run the numbers. I did a preliminary run just messing around with your other numbers and it seemed like it was all messed up! Not to get you too concerned yet, I may have had some numbers wrong, but looking at your BDC, that is about what the software was saying. I'll play around with the numbers tomorrow evening and let you know what I come up with Sid.
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I realise the deck height is the top of the barrel, but in reference to what? I thought it would be the piston @ b.d.c.
Aha, more learning.
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The deck height is the distance from the top of the cylinder to the top of the piston (outer most edge). It is either positive or negative depending if the piston is recessed or sticks out. Here's a good link again on measuring it and it's importance. http://www.2strokeheads.com/tech1.htm. (http://www.2strokeheads.com/tech1.htm.) The software tells me where the piston is at BDC by calculating off of the stroke and conrod length. ;)
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Thanks Shaka, I didn't get a chance to look at that before, I will get a deck height soon.
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Awesome!!! I'm holding my breath! Realy. I thought there was a pict where the piston was much lower. I'll look again. There is still jope.
l
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With 3 gaskets the deck height is 0.35mm with feelers, b.d.c is 41.7 using digital vernier calipers, these may not be perfect but is about as good as I can get.
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Also found a point to check gap between jug and crankcase, 1.05mm.
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You're the best Sid!
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Well, if it doesnt work, it wont be for a want of trying.
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It Truely does hurt to say this... I think I/We suggested staying away from unproven parts... There is a tear in my eye~ Something good will come of it tho. IF AT WORST>>> It could be welded, re-sleeved, and made right for about $150.00 bucks. You could run another kit, and work that into exactly what you want. Just if...
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Nah, welding and resleeving is a bit more than it is worth. Yes, you did say stay away from unproven products, and as I said, I only have me to blame. It has been fun trying though, worst case I have a large carb and exhaust for a 50.
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G'Day all, I put the scoot back together without the head gasket, so, with the deck height 0.35mm and head recess of 0.78mm that would be a squish of 1.13mm. Lots of detonation. Went home and pulled it apart again and put the head gasket back in, 0.5mm, detonation is gone again, squish of 1.63. Still lags from 3/4 throttle so will go back to carb and see what I can do there. It hasn't worked out right but is still ongoing.
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I'm about to head out to work, but figured I'd check back. The only question I have is is the .35mm deck height + or -. Is the head sticking up, or recessed?
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The piston is .35mm below the top of the cylinder
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Hey Shaka, I am lucky enough to be on my days off, so tomorrow I will be going for a ride, I dont know which way I will go but it will probably be southwest to Port Lincoln, is a nice area.
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Your Carb. and pipe will go a long way on another kit so nothing is lost there. Perhaps the seller has some helpfull info on the jug? If you could invite him/her/them to look at the forum, they just may have some valuable input! Maybe?
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Hi zombie, would you be able to give me any specifics so I can email him and see how he responds. Now I see why he wanted an oil/fuel ratio of 3/1. I cant afford to buy a brand name one but if I buy one of the cheap ones again I will be asking for a port map first.
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If you email the latest port map you did, and explain how the piston is above ALL the port bottoms meaning the ports never fully open. I think he will get it right off the bat. (If he has any understanding of what he is selling) There may well be a needed spacer for the bottom of the jug, and a crank/con rod kit made just for that jug, but as josh is facing the same troubles w/ a supplied crank kit I dont really think that is the case. I think the port map, a http address for your thread, some of the photos you took, and detail all the trouble, and money invested. That should be enough to get a satisfactory response from him. The trouble w/ a prelim port map is you just wont know where they fall w/ out the matching piston actually mounted on your crank. Proven Products Bro! Josh at invasion also runs a shop from his house. Maybe he has a used kit, or a contact who can supply one. His posters are all over the globe as well as here, but they are much more into tuning on invasion, so I believe there would be alot more spare kits to go around from there. I'll PM him right now to see wuz up. One way or another we will get you scootin!
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Thanks a lot zombie, I will send him an email, maybe it needs a stroker crank. I am still scootin'.
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Sid, If you are looking at getting another kit, here is the one I'm running. It is cheap relative to some of the other ones on the market, and I know it works! ;) I'll try to run your numbers through the software in a little bit. I'm still trying to figure out how it all works!
http://www.mhr-usa.com/index.php?target=mopeds&mode=mopeds_search&subcats=Y&cid=564&moped_brand_id=128&moped_model_id=551 (http://www.mhr-usa.com/index.php?target=mopeds&mode=mopeds_search&subcats=Y&cid=564&moped_brand_id=128&moped_model_id=551)
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The BEST one is the Polinni Corsa, Most reliable out of the box is the cast iron Malossi. Shakas kit will rival the Corsa once he tunes it. Shaka Does your GF have a sister?
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The BEST one is the Polinni Corsa, Most reliable out of the box is the cast iron Malossi. Shakas kit will rival the Corsa once he tunes it. Shaka Does your GF have a sister?
I can't speak from experience on the comparison as I've only used the Airsal. I hear that Corsa is the $h*t though! She does have a sister, but she's married w/ kids! Sorry bro!
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Thanks for the link Shaka, I left them a message. The only problem is price but will have to see what they charge for shipping.
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Steve is the guy you want to talk to. It is best to call them and talk to him. Make sure he sends two base gaskets with it. In my case, I actually needed three, but went with two head & two base. That is what I'm trying to fine tune now. I've been playing with your port map in the software. I finally got it loaded and traced. It doesn't look as bad as I thought. It appears that only the exhaust and boost port are not fully exposed at bdc. It looks like the piston sits right at the base of the transfers. I'm wondering if you are not getting enough exhaust out and that's why your running so hot? It may not be the exhaust, but rather the port timing. I'll keep messing with it.
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The boost port is not an issue if there are windows cut into the piston skirt, and the exhaust can be fixed by raising the jug IF it does not interfere w/ the rest of the timings. The piston can also be relieved to accomadate the exhaust port. Here is a degree wheel. http://www.tavia.com/free_degree_wheel.html (http://www.tavia.com/free_degree_wheel.html) You may need this next . Print it, and laminate it to an old 33rpm record from a thrift shop I put clear shelf paper over it to keep the grease of. it's easy to trim the plastic w/ tin snips to fit the size you print out. Get ready sid cause the tuning fun has just begun... Shaka~Music Please!
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Oh yeah! lot's of us here will handel a drop shipment for you! Hate to see people taken advantage of...
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Man this program is seems complicated! I can't figure out what is going on. The transfers may be below as well. This may take some time to figure out! I'm working on it though! When I uploaded you port map into the one program it gives me a different view of what the other is saying, just strictly by numbers. Confusing!!!
Ps. Shipping from Moped Hospital is pretty cheap to me. I could ship it to you no problem! Actually, Zombie's even closer to them. Feel like a road trip to Key West Zombie? ;D
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Is some rice white? HEdoublehockeysticks YEAH! It would be soooo much better to se Sid's kit screamin' first. I think all the ports are below the piston from the map. If so a Major rebuild of the crank/con rod/cases, and cutting the top of the jug would correct it. The cc's would also go down thus negating the point of the kit! What happens w/ these China kits is "someone" sits down and takes picts of a good kit, and loads the picts. into a simple CAD program that can run thousands of "knock offs" a week! They flood mostly developing nations with CHEAP merchandise, and the failure rate is mostly un-reported. There are 2 "Thunder dragon" kits that I know of, and they have the same problem. I live in a S W A M~ F'N ~P, and know about it. BUTTTT... I never give up on a part unless it cracks or breaks. Zombie is not just an internet name. Everyone calls me zombie because if it is mechanical in nature, and considered DEAD... I bring it to life! "Parts are parts" Even if the name on the jar said Aby someone! Aby whom you may ask? Aby Normal I think.
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I would love to see Sid's kit scream!!! I'm the same way with making stuff work! There is always a way! Sometimes it turns out to not be worth all the work though! I just really want to figure out what exactly is wrong, before we give up on it! One question I have is what is the Conrod length? I can's seem to find a definitive answer anywhere! I used 80mm in the software, which I think is right, but not certain.
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Here's a pic of sid's port map with where the program put TDC and BDC. This looks about right as the BDC line is right on top of Sid's.
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G'Day all, he responded with saying that it is one of the best, he did mention polini and malossi saying some of them are made in Taiwan. Still maintains the 3/1 fuel/oil ratio. The fuel and oil I am using would work out to a little over $7.00 per litre. Ouch.
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It really doesn't sound like he knows what he is talking about! I don't even think 3:1 fuel to oil would even combust! Malossi and Polini are not made in Taiwan. They are both in Italy. Plus, yours is not made in Taiwan, but rather China! Someone really needs to put a stop to people selling these products which don't work!!!! >:(
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OK! He is feeding you Dog $hit instead of Kibble. 3:1 oil will cool it down enough to run, no doubt. That is not the REAL WORLD THO! Can you stick to it and PROVE to him that the jug is a KNOCK OFF? I bought a cdi from a fella in Hawaii that SWORE I was mistaken. After proving him wrong by finding other scoots that it worked on, (I still to this day recommend him to the PROPER customers) I was refunded EVERY PENNY! It's not a personal attack on your supplier, and if you convince him of this it may well work out. That jug MAY work on another scoot, but it "appears" it may NOT work on a ZX/SUPER FEVER. Keep Contact W/him. Show him the thread! Maybe he has another kit to replace this one that will make it right? Shaka knows I posted against the cdi untill Someone else posted w/ the correct application. I recommended the seller, and it turned up roses for all. Sid You Have The Patience Of A Saint! If you give up I would like to have your Gravity boots! (just in case)
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Thanks for the support, I have no intention of giving up, but I am also realistic enough to accept it when I am flogging a dead horse. I will keep on contacting him but I doubt that anything will come of it. I think his actual statement was 300cc of oil to 1000cc of gas.
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Thanks zombie and Shaka, I missed some bits earlier (must be from checking in on the mobile phone), I downloaded the degree wheel,
Shaka, with the measurements I gave b.d.c. was 41.7mm from the top of the cylinder, with the deck height of 0.35mm (I believe that would be negative, piston below the cylinder top). Hey zombie, if anyone has the patience of a saint, I don't think it is on this side of the world. :)
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I just noticed Sid, You worked up to Sr. Member on 1 single build! How's about that?
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I just noticed Sid, You worked up to Sr. Member on 1 single build! How's about that?
..dang...i had to bullsh*t my way there..
..props to sid!!!
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Yeah, I can gab on a bit.
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Yeah Slinger was posting the time of day to get props. At the tone the time will be 6:66
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Yeah Slinger was posting the time of day to get props. At the tone the time will be 6:66
..temperature--12,000 degrees...
..do you know where your heathens are??
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Hmm, beware
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G'Day All, today I managed to speak to a bloke at the local bike shop who is held in high regard and he says he will machine the jug if I want him to, says about 3mm spacer should get it about right. When I said about 100cc oil/300cc petrol he said "wouldn't run".
Still some hope yet. Haven't heard from the seller again.
A bit sad when you make senior member on one build, maybe I could resign as Sid Junior and reclaim some of that youthfulness. :)
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Just had another look at Josh's 125 upgrade on scooter invasion, he has what he is calling wacky port durations. Now that I am a little more enlightened it would seem that he has the exact opposite problem to what I have, his ports being too high. On a brighter note for me is that at least I can try to cut a spacer to put under the base and get the top machined to suit. It may be frustrating but at least I am learning something. "Never too old to learn" they say. :)
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That sounds like the correct approach sid. Give shaka a little minute w/ the program, and hopefully he can work out the timings with different jug heights. Just guessing is no good, but if 3mm gets the ports exposed. it is a great start. Keep in mind you will need a gasket above, and below the spacer. From your experiments tho that sounds like the right way to go.
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Yeah, I cant do it straight away, being Saturday. when I do get the material I will have to work out how to cut it,was thinking jigsaw.
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Well, aluminum would of course be best. A jig could do all the rough cutting, and a Moto Tool is great for finishing to the lines. If there is a shop that does water jet cutting near by you, you could hand them the paper gasket, and have 1 cut for you for around 30 bucks. Either way it sounds like the right approach.
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Well, it sounds like it will be the jigsaw, but it also sounds like an excuse to buy a die grinder. I dont mind doing these sorts of jobs, it just takes time.
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Yeah! I like it myself, or couldn't you tell...
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Sid, you are correct that Josh has the opposite problem as you, but he is also running a stroker crank. I haven't had any more free time to sit down with the program. I will try and find some this evening. That great you found someone willing to do some machining on your engine for you! All we have to do now is figure out exactly where and how much is needed!
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G'Dax Shaka, my current setup is base gasket compressed is 1.05, top of cyl. to piston @ b.d.c 41.7. thanks for doing this, a chance to try your new software I guess.
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I'm working on it right now. Been doing a lot of reading of Bell's book. Good stuff! I'm trying to learn how to interpret all the information the software is giving me. Numbers are all useless unless you know how to use them! ;) The 41.7mm from top of cylinder to piston at BDC sounds about right if you have a -0.35mm deck height and a stroke of 41.4mm. There is an extra 0.5mm somewhere in there, but I'll work it out. This is definitely giving me a good chance to learn the software before I use it on my own cylinder. Thanks for being the Guinea Pig Sid! ;D
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Funny that, some say I'm a gimme pig.
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I'm think I may be getting somewhere with the numbers! I just asked the help of Step Vino on Scooter Invasion. He is the person who actually wrote the software! From what I can tell your port durations are way off. I think mostly because the ports are well below the cylinder at BDC. I think approx. what needs to happen is to put in about a 2-2.5mm base gasket and make the ports themselves a little taller. The exhaust by about 2.5mm and the others by about 0.5mm. Then you will need to have the top of the cylinder shaved maybe 1mm and possibly the head as well. Whatever is required to achieve the proper squish. Here are your current specs as far as I can tell:
Bore: 50.0
Stroke: 41.4
Conrod: 80.0
Deck Clearance: -0.35
Exhaust PortTop-BarrelTop: 24.35
MainTransfer PortTop-BarrelTop: 33.00
AuxTransfer PortTop-BarrelTop: 33.00
Boost PortTop-BarrelTop: 32.66
Exhaust duration: 172.9
MainTransfer duration: 118.0
AuxTransfer duration: 118.0
Boost duration: 120.5
My understanding is you want your exhaust duration at about 192 and the transfers at about 130. I'll let you know when I find out more.
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Bloody amazing. thanks Shaka
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No worries! Don't do anything yet. Keep in mind those are all preliminary numbers. Just wanted to give you an update. ;D
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By George, I think he's got it! Those are the #'s He needed... I know you're still fine tunning (as it were) but that is exactly the info needed to repair the set-up. Now you'll be riding wheelies.
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Wheelies would be a bonus but not the intention, when I get a chance I will take it off again and try to get an idea of how far I can go. As for port duration, is that altered by the port opening size? (I didnt word that too well but I hope you know what I mean)
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Yes, the duration is in degrees. It's the amount of time a particular port is open in reference to the degrees of rotation through the stroke. I hope I worded that right! It has everything to do with the height of the ports vertically, at what point they open and close.
I got a response back from Step Vino and I had the deck height reversed in the program. I had it as negative when it needs to be positive. Anyways, the numbers all changed around! I'll keep working them. I think now you need a thinner base gasket, something like 0.5mm and to shave more off the cylinder top.
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Here's the numbers Step Vino ran. I'm not sure exactly what it all means yet, but I'll work it out hopefully with a bit more of his help! I'm calling it a night. I'll try and do some more tomorrow evening, might be a little busy though.
Bore: 50.0
Stroke: 41.4
Conrod: 80.0
Deck Clearance: 0.35
Exhaust PortTop-BarrelTop: 24.35
MainTransfer PortTop-BarrelTop: 33.00
AuxTransfer PortTop-BarrelTop: 33.00
Boost PortTop-BarrelTop: 32.66
Exhaust duration: 176.8
MainTransfer duration: 123.2
AuxTransfer duration: 123.2
Boost duration: 125.6
Porting Mods
===============
Raise barrel: 0.00
Raise exhaust: 0.94
Raise main transfers: 0.40
Raise aux transfers: 0.39
Raise boost port: 0.06
Exhaust duration: 182.0
Main transfer duration: 126.0
Aux transfer duration: 126.0
Boost duration: 126.0
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Thank you Shaka, this is getting kind of interesting.
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Forgot to ask, do you know at what rpm your pipe makes it's power? To really get the numbers right we need to know the intended operating range of the engine and where the pipe makes it's power. I'm guessing you don't have this info, but it would be helpful. Maybe you can find out?
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The engine was claimed to make 13hp @ 8,800rpm. I will ask customx22, he has one of these pipes and knows more about them.
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with regards to cutting the aluminium, being 2~3 mm thick, using a jig saw would be a bit overkill, sorta like rabbiting with a 12 gauge.
I think maybe a coping saw and a file might be a little more realistic. Hang on, 12 gauge,,,, wabbit,,, sounds a bit like Elmer Fudd.
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Sid, there are so many variables in this equation! I think we are making progress though! Here is a copy of the most recent email from Step Vino. I guess there is a discrepancy with the deck height.
I ran the portmap through the portmap analyzer
program and came up with the BDC line too high
as well. If I change the crank size to 45mm,
then BDC moves to the right place.
The data file I sent last time has both the stock
engine durations, and the durations after raising
the ports. I wouldn't use that as a basis for porting
though, since something might be wrong with the
original specs you sent: If the crank is smaller
than 45mm, the measured deck height should have
been larger than 0.3mm.
To measure the deck height you need to have
the base gasket installed, and the cylinder
tightened down to spec torque settings.
I think it may be easier to have you do another port map as the original one is pretty rough. I had to shop the photo to get it to work because the exhaust port was split. The easiest way I have found to do it is to take a piece of paper and cut it so it fits the size of the circumference of the cylinder. Put the seam between the exhaust port and the transfers. Then line up the top of the paper with the top of the cylinder and put a couple pieces of tape to hold it in place. To get a good transfer use a pencil and rub around the edges of the ports, then use your finger to rub it in. This should give a nice clear transfer. Remove the paper from the cylinder and outline the ports with nice dark lines. Then measure from the top of the paper to the top of the ports. That is the only measurement needed. The only other measurement needed is the deck height. This has to be taken with the cylinder torqued down and the base gasket in place. Recessed cylinder = positive deck height number. Let me know if any of this is unclear. I think the 8,800 rpm is probably a good range to work with. This means it is a low revving cylinder and from what we've gathered you have a low revving pipe as well.
Ps. I've been using 41.4mm as the stroke. From my understanding this is the stock crank stroke listed in the service manual.
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Yeah, that is pretty much what I did but I will do it again it the ex port complete. the deck height is with the gasket and piston is with gasket also.
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I hate to ask you to do it again. I'm not sure you really need to. I just wanted to get a second look at the measurements to make sure they are accurate. Unless you want to really get into porting the cylinder, I think the main goal is to determine the ideal base gasket thickness and from that how much needs to be machined from the top of the cylinder.
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yeah, that is what I want. I think a 2mm spacer should get it close and from there adjust with different gasket thickness, being two gaskets will give more room for adjustment.
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I'll try and run some more numbers. I'll figure out how much space you need to take up at the base. Then you will most likely have to put in that amount of gasket and re-measure. Then we can see where it sits and figure out how much needs to come off the top. I won't get a chance to sit down again with the program until tomorrow.
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Thank you very much for spending all this time on it. have a nice weekend.
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Once it's aoll dne it willl bee toooocool
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Thanks Sid! Kinda weird, but I hope you've had a good weekend! :D
I sure hope so Zombie!
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Ahh, well, started dayshift on friday but at least it is only five days.
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G'Day all, I managed to pick up a piece of aluminium today but I could only get 1.6mm or 3mm, so I took the 3. BUT, having been reading The Two Stroke Tuner's Handbook I came across the part about the ports. In this section he suggests that rather than trying to machine the ports it is better to notch the piston to try the adjustment. Do you reckon this might be worth a try, or should I just go ahead with the spacer idea?
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I appears that your ports are too far out to take that much off the piston. They are all consistent too. That make for raising the jug as the better option in my opinion. If you find you still need 1mm or so for the exhaust it would be a good idea to remove a little there. That will also help cool the piston in front of the port if you can channel the mod into a V shape from the center. soooo I would keep moving along w/ the spacer.
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Sid, I think Zombie is correct about notching the piston. I think this is more for trying to match up when one port is too low. I think he specifically uses the exhaust port in the example. I worked with my own portings yesterday and found some interesting correlations. I'll take another look at yours this evening and let you know what thickness spacer to use.
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Yeah, I thought so too, was just a thought. Reading that book there are a lot of ideas in there.
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Sid, I ran your port map back through the software. It is showing the bottom of the transfer ports are the highest. To bring the piston to the bottom of those ports at BDC you will need to add an additional 2.25mm of base gasket to the already 1.05mm gasket that was in place when you took the deck height measurement of 0.35mm. With that added gasket the exhaust port will still be covered by 2mm and the boost by 3.6mm by the piston. That should be a good compromise as you don't want the transfers to be above the piston at BDC. This means that your deck height would then be 2.6mm. We need to know the thickness of the head gasket you will be using as well as the amount of recess in the squish area of the head to determine exactly how much material need to be removed from the head to achieve a squish of about 0.8mm.
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I got 3mm plate for spacer, head recess was 0.78mm head gasket is 0.5mm. when I cut the spacer I will add gasket to bring the trans. ports to the piston top and take some more measurements. I haven't remeasured yet as I am still using the scoot. I get a couple of days off now so will try to cut the spacer tonight.
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Here that shaka! He's still riding the scoot!I'm Impressed!
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I know, I know, I shouldn't ride the scoot until I get it sorted properly, but its there to use and so I do. Bad policy I know but I never claimed to be good. lol. :-)
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Whatever! If it runs, run it! Unless it's lean! ;) How's it been running Sid?
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Not too good, the weather has cooled a quite a bit but I don't think that is the problem. It will run off the clock at about 1/4 ~ 1/3 throttle but try to open anywhere past half and it just bogs, I think it is to do with altering the jug height, once we get it set right and get the top trimmed I should be able to have another go at the carby. I started cutting the spacer tonight, drilled lots of holes and used a small hacksaw. Lots of cutting, lots of filing and lots of patience. Another hour or so tomorrow and it should be done. :)
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G'Day All, I have finally done the spacer and am about to pull the scoot apart (not for the first time) and insert the spacer and see where we go from there. I don't think I have done too bad a job of it, though not perfect it should do the job.
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This is one time that I really,really want to say F' Yeah it looks good! Sid... I commend you! Too bad Ausi. is an island or I'd be scootin' as fast as I could to shake your hand. If you have to trim some mm. off the spacer it is an easy task for a fella of your skills. Can you hear me applauding you... Just did!
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:) Cheers mate, I hear ya, mixed results, with the spacer in and using two 0.4mm gaskets the transfer ports are a touch above the piston at b.d.c, the exhaust port is as close to perfectly flush as I can tell, putting my finger through the ex. port it feels flush. Should I sand the spacer or accept it as it is? I can now see the light.
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Alright I was wrong there is a small difference in the piston and ex. port, piston is a touch high so I will sand the spacer, should I go for the trans. ports flush or ex. port? I suspect the transfer ports. B.D.C. is 44.6mm, deck height is 3.15.
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You can seal the jug/spacer w/ http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/anaerobic_gasket_makers.htm (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/anaerobic_gasket_makers.htm) This may lose you some space vs. gaskets on top, and bottom of the spacer. I forget the #'s but you still need at least .5mm squish. .8mm is best. Or did I get the math wrong and you are now at -3.5mm. on the deck. Ok it's -. My bad... w/ the port height corrected, and the squish now beyond measure, How much of a recess is there in the head before the combustion chamber? That # will give you the amount to shave off the cyl.. - the gasket of course. My advise is to flush the transfers, and notch the piston to get the exhaust correct. The reason for this is to create a flow away from the transfers heading to the exhaust. It will keep the piston cooler, and get a better flow thru the engine. Picture a pie slice. That is what you want to do on the piston. From the dead center create a slope to the exh. port. I know it sounds like a $hit load of drama, but I have been tunning 2t's before any of these computers were around to tell me what I did or didn't know. FLOW is the key. You've come a long way my friend. I hope to see your scoot doing 65mph on the steady. Or at LEAST get some buddies into scootin'/modding w/ you.
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Sid, if that scoot's not doin" 65 mph soon.....then I'm a bloody dag!!! I sense your persistence will pay off soon!!!
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Cheers mate, having a slack attack at the moment, out having lunch, will be back on the job soon. Will sand the spacer down a little more, feel more comfortable with gaskets. the piston grooving sounds interesting and look forward to trying it if needed. once that is all sorted will see what needs to come of the cylinder.
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You are the best, MATE. Mid night Tues., and finishing my umpteenth beer.
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Spacer sanded the transfer ports are very close to flush, the exhaust is only a small section of piston above the bottom of the port.
Deck height is 2.76mm but if we try to machine that much off the cylinder it will be cutting into the top cooling fin. Piston @ B.D.C. is 44.26mm.
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At this point I would suggest getting it as close as you can. You know the #'s for the top. I can't wait to hear how it does!
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Yeah, I dropped it off this arvo but the bloke who is going to do it wasnt there. I left a note saying what the deck height was but I expect he will ring to see what I want him to do. Will probably be a few days.
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Sounds like you made some good progress! Good work on the spacer also! I might have you make me one, I need it 1.3mm thick! ;) It sounds like Zombie put you down the right track. You want the trans ports flush to just slightly above the piston at BDC. You want to utilize the incoming angle of the port to direct the flow up and towards the back of the cylinder. It's ok if the exhaust is a little lower than the piston as it has an outward flow and piston doesn't disrupt it as much on the way out. As Zombie said, you can always shave down the piston a little if needed. I would work on getting the jug shaved and getting the squish set before you have a go at the piston. You may find it runs well with the current port timing. I'll have to double check, but I think your exhaust port was a little tall to begin with. At least comparing to my 2 cylinders. The interesting correlation I found while port mapping my stock cylinder and my Airsal is the difference in height between the top of the trans. and exhaust port in both 7.5mm. I'm not sure this is ideal, just found it interesting!
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1.6mm, should be doable, then happy sanding. will need a template to get the size and shape, cereal pack will do.
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Haha! Thanks, I'm going to give it a go. I just haven't had much luck finding any aluminum stock. While at the hardware store yesterday I happened upon a gutter end cap for about $1. I didn't have my calipers on me, but grabbed it anyways. It turns out it is too thin. I'll figure it out though.
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Hardware shops around here only stock checker plate but a local fabricator had flat plate in 1.6 and 3mm. I got lucky.
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Hey zombie, I had a look at the permatex site, I do use ultra blue, but the other one I use was not on there, Aviation Forma~Gasket
No. 3, non hardening sealant, good stuff, sticky as. Can be messy but is a good sealant, I will use this if I remove a gasket for a test,
curiosity and all that. Permatex is a Locktite company and I think the Quality is still there.
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That's the one I couldn't remember the name for #3. It has the same qualities as the OMC perfect seal. The one I was trying to point out was the anaerobic sealer. I will work on perfect surfaces w/out a gasket. It may be good for your spacer/jug set up. I shy away from the blue silicone based sealers. They tend to swell/soften around fuel. With most gaskets I will coat one side w/ sealer, and leave the other dry. That way the parts can come apart w/ out tearing the gaskets. I got the needle today... Thanks again Bro! Shaka, I will look to see if I have any stock that may help. Pretty sure I do.
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I reckon that formagasket should be good for no gasket. That is one well travelled needle for a ZX50.
Just gotta wait now, gives me a chance to ride the GS500 for a while at least. :D
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Zombie- if you come through for me again, I owe you huge!!!! ;) I've been trying to find some 1/16" sheet aluminum to cut my spacer out of. So far I've lucked out! Honestly, I haven't looked around locally super hard, been too busy!
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Just got the phone call, cylinder is done, now to pick it up and see what happens. Make or break time ;)
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Good luck! I'd put it together and re-take measurements first. Keep us updated, I'll be around a little tomorrow and then gone for the weekend.
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Got My fingers crossed for ya! Shaka I gots a piece for ya! Marine fuel tank, right at .124
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G'Day Blokes, computer is giving a little grief. I did another port map, will attach a photo, piston is now just slightly proud at the front but seems flush at the rear. Piston at B.D.C. is 41.3mm, ex. port is 21.75mm, left trans. ports 30.26, boost port 29.78, right trans. ports 30.01, these measuerements are from the top of the cylinder to the top of the ports. The transfer ports are slightly above the piston @ B.D.C. I have taken it for a ride and though not getting to top speed as quick it seems to have lost some of that bog above 1/2 throttle. This port map I put the numbers on upside down, oops.
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A pic of the cylinder bolted down. It may be that my sanding the spacer was not too good.
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I will keep looking around to see if I can find a piece of aluminium about 2.6~2.8mm and cut another spacer. ;D Will get it right sooner or later :)
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I think the difference is in the compression. You were running a hand-grenade before. What you have now is tuning the jug/head. (jug-head...Ha Ha...) I find it hard to believe that .05mm makes a difference in anything... but it does. By the way I successfully cloned your dogs. I took the dna from the stamp, and transfered it to my female dog, and now have floating AUSI Sheptebullpitpeis. I'm typing slower as one of them has eaten my favorite finger. You ALL know which one! (No offense to anyone, I just thought I needed that one) Guess I really don't.
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Yeah, running like that is not good so I will have to either try sanding the spacer or find material for a new one. I have printed the degree wheel but need something to stick it to, will then learn a little about port timing. When I tried to get the flywheel of before I couldnt move it and didn't want to break it so I left it. I then found a flywheel puller on ebay, scooter assassins for $11+ shipping, it is now sitting on my bench. I tried to buy one for the Kawasaki last year and they wanted over $100. Don't we get ripped of here. I will try to keep my fingers intact, I get enough grief from this computer witout losing any finger as well. ;)
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If your spacer lines up the ports correctly, you may want to add a spacer/thicker gasket to the head.
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I forgot to say you don't need to pull the flywheel to use the degree wheel Just extend a paper clip out over it as your indicator. I have heard an old dvd will work for mounting the wheel to also.
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I do have another head gasket, came with the piston kit. I was playing with the jet last night and after drilling out my 125 jet too far and soldering it, I got it somewhere between 125 and 130. bog is gone but lacking performance, not bad but could be better. I wont pull the jug just yet, I will try to make another spacer first.
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What spacer are you running now? Was that the 3.0mm one? What is the deck height. It looks like it is a little bit negative now, but that may be ok. Have you taken another squish measurement? You may be ok on the spacer, however if your trans ports are above the piston at BDC you probably want a thicker spacer in there. Let me know what the measurements are and I'll run the numbers again.
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YOOOOO Da Man Shaka! Would you please be our data base? Just Messin'n... My neighbors chickens are now chasing my dogs! Yankee Irish Catholic/VS: The State O" DDE SoWTH~ Wish me well Yous Guys... Just kidding. It sounded funny to me
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I don't know about that Zombie!
I'm having enough trouble keeping up with this one! I'm away for 2 days and there's all sorts of new numbers! Gotta give the guy credit. . . I know his persistence will pay off!!! You da man Sid!!!
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It's like riding a bike BRO! You know
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Go the doggies, don't mind a bit of chicken. Hope you had a good weekend Shaka, (doing night shift myself). With the cylinder he took the 2.76mm off the top, that gave the current port map,I think this one was a little better, you know, practice and all that. The piston is a little high at the front but not at the rear, I suspect my sanding of the spacer was not too good so I will try to get some of the 1.6mm material tomorrow,if that gives a little too much piston at top I can adjust with gasket thickness. I haven't rechecked squish yet, will try to sort the base first. The head recess was 0.78mm, head gasket was 0.5, so that gives me about 1.28mm to work with. On it goes, progress is slow but at least it is progress.
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If your jug is tilted AT ALL it will blow the con rod. They are strong, but not bullet proof. w/ the 1.28mm that leaves you .48mm to work with. the #'s are there. Just get the spacer sorted. Maybe sand it square, and use the appropriate gasket. I found it easiest to sand on a Machined table, and use a block to apply pressure to the part. Not my hands.
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Yeah, I did use a glass top table but I used my hand for pressure, not a good result.
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Oh well Spacer 2.0...
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I will see if I can get some of the 1.6mm, take 2 should be better. Have your dogs caught the chooks yet. Dinner time.
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Actually ! of them has just passed from PARVO. They all have their shots, and the Vet informed me that where I live is literally a death zone for dogs as MOST of my redneck neighbors NEVER bring their dogs for shots, and the virus has the chance to thrive, and mutate. My second pup is also ill at the moment. Makes me want to start a Bio War up in here. I'm not just talking about the neighborhood being lax on dog care, but the entire beer drinking/truck driving county. Oh well. Is there an anthrax store near you? I'm having no luck finding any.
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That is sad to hear, they say a dog is a mans best friend and I must agree, hope your pups come out ok.
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Sorry to hear that Zombie!!! I hope your other pup all the best as well!!!
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Thanks guys! Sorry to bum out the thread.
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G'Day, back again, been a little busy but I have now got the material for "spacer 2.0", have marked it out, just have to drill and cut it when I get a chance, unfortunately it may be a few days, I have just given the Boulevard an oil change, I have the GS in pieces trying to fit a luggage rack which seems to have the supplied brackets for a Ducatti Monster, go figure, have just put a new tyre on the Ninja, stayed with the Dunlop GT301 as have had no problems with this tyre yet, it exceeds my riding style and also that of my wife. Over the weekend I will have to pull the ninja apart to fix a couple of oil leaks, so will replace the plugs and check valve clearances while I am there. We picked up a luggage rack for the Ninja on ebay which has gone on Quite well, (this one is not for a Ducatti). This must be one of the longest welcome threads yet?? :)
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I do believe you are right Sid!
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...sorry to hear about your doguppies z......
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One passed, and one made it. Thanks Bro!
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Have now cut spacer 2.0, will strip the scoot tonight and hopefully get it right this time.
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:) I have finally got around to doing this job, hopefully it will be alright. When I removed the cylinder I saw that the cylinder was showing signs of heat again, (I was hoping that would have been sort out by raising the cylinder). With the 1.6mm spacer and 3x 0.4mm gaskets, (1 below spacer and two above) the deck height was 1.2mm and the transfer ports were close to flush, by my eye anyway, with 1 head gasket the squish measurement was 0.4mm, with 2 head gaskets the squish measurement was 0.87mm, so finally I have got it close to right. At B.D.C. the piston was slightly above the bottom of the exhaust port but I wouldn't think it would cause any restriction, the inlet port was still not fully exposed, I hope this won't affect it too much. Now for the tease, I have not started it yet as it was getting a bit late to stir up the neighbours (though some I would gladly stir). I have to go over to Port Pirie tomorrow so I won't be able to start it until tomorrow afternoon or night. Then I will have to go back to the jets again. Then it will be onto the C.V.T.
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All the #'s sound right Sid! Keep the plug indexed, run Hi test fuel, and keep your fingers crossed. Jetting should finish up any rough edges. You may want to look into aome colder plugs too. The difference is un believeable. If the kit is still running hot after this set up colder plugs will get the temp. down, and the power up. Holding my breath...Z
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Sounds like you may have gotten it! The exhaust port not being fully exposed is not an issue. When you say the inlet port is not fully exposed either are you referring to the transfers or the boost? It's alright if the boost is not fully exposed either. The ones you want right at the piston are the transfers. I sure hope this one works, I'll be holding my breath as well! Don't wait too long Zombie and I may die!! ;)
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Turning blue now...
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Sorry guys, 6:00am now, waiting for sunup to leave for port pirie, (dont want to hit a roo on a bike, that could be very scary, sore and expensive). the plug is indexed, I have one that is right on its own. If we get enough time on the way home we will make a detour and go through Port Germain Gorge and Horrock's Pass and take some pics. That is a very nice ride. Blue is not so bad, you gotta watch out for the purple. Will report back at the end of the day. Yes the transfer ports are flush, to my eye anyway, but probably not if measured correctly. Heres to hoping.
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Can't quite tell for sure, might pass out on the way to the mirror, but I'm feeling . . . Purple. . . :-X
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What is the difference between pink and purple?
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Genetics?
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Nah mate, the grip!
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I should have thought more about it. Just scared of what I may have thought. That one got me!
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Finally, I have started it and taken it for a ride, it does seem more responsive but suffers a lot of top end bog, over half throttle. Tomorrow I will try a smaller jet and raise the needle, maybe now get some good results. A big thank you to you blokes for all your help, it has been invaluable.
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It's no trouble at all Sid. Be careful as the bog may be too lean also. Another factor could be the heat in the cly. goes up w/ rpms. Once you get the direction for the jetting right, you may want to look into the spark plug heat range. The correct plug makes a world of difference. (a few more mph) I am REALLY stoked for you tho Bro! You have done more work on that one scoot than I have on the past three I built. Congrats! Hey ps. I sure would like to see a video of that jammer working...
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Yeah mate, will see what we can do about a vid. the past week or so I have been playing with the jet and needle and it seemr to be too rich, if I raise the needle 1 notch it bogs in the mid. so try a smaller jet. This started since raising the jug. Amazing how so many things affect each other, but it is all to work in concert.
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You,re the man! Any zx ?'s I'm gonna refer to you and Shaka! I'm glad you live sooo far away... I'd be embarrassed to get my but wooped by a China kit! I guess it now deserves the name Thunder Dragon. When I do retire this engine I just may try one of those "grenades" out!
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Mate, in a word, don't touch. If it lasts a year, bonus, if it blows and takes my crank with it I wont be happy but I will be wiser. The carb kit seems ok, but I have no experiencd to base that on, it did have the inlet manifold and throttle cable with it so it was a complete kit.
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...thunder dragon...
..coool...
...i think a vid from sid is in order...
???
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Appreciate the heads up! I was just trying to make you feel better about it! Na, Really tho, I think if you new what to expect from the jump, it would have been much easier. I imagine tho it wound up costing the same/more than a top shelf kit.?. Just can't wait to here the post telling about how you whooped a '67 GTO from the light!
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...thunder dragon...
..coool... There is a post on Scoot Invasion where Josh is trying to sort out the same jug. Dio burnout's wife reads some Cantonese/Mandarin and translated the symbols on the base of the jug to be Thunder Dragon. Funny thing is I posted this thread there, and NO ONE replied. People who seem to have a lot to say about nothing, tend to say nothing about alot! I'll just let sids results sit here!
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...'nuff said..........
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I'm very happy for you Sid!!!!! It sounds like it is running and not detonating!? How is the improvement over stock, acceleration/top speed? I'm sure you'll most likely need to do the reduction gear swap to get the full potential out of it! Now on to carb and cvt tuning! The fun never stops!!! ;D
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It is going ok, the jet is way out. tried a 120, no good, tried 130, worse so went back to scratch and put in the 107 that came with the carb and it runs ok but needs more. So, back to the carb tuning. I do have some 5 and 6 gram rollers to play with. will find out about det. when I get the jet sorted. Cheers guys, I hope it to be leaving teenage tossers in their Commodores at the lights.
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...wtf is a commodore??...
..or a tosser for that matter...lol...
???
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A Commodore is a Holden sedan, Holden is the Australian arm of Chev. A tosser is a wanker, dickhead, numnuts, insert your choice.
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LMAOROF!!!! ;D
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...lmao..okay...
...i'm culturaly challenged, you'll have to forgive me for that....
...a commodore sounds like an oldsmobile here...
..grampa's car... :D
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Where's calothrix? We need a limyologist to translate! Have you tried melting solder into the larger jet to re- size it. I use welding torch tip cleaners to size whatever I need. There are some older posts w' the info/equip. needed. If you don't want to bother soldering them the tip cleaners will cut the brass by hand, and you can go up 1 step at a time till you nail it. I have no clue what size my jets are now but I could tell you which cleaner I used...
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dickhead, numnuts,
Aussie, Brit, Yank, Reb.......no translation needed here!
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Cheers zombie, I have soldered and drilled the jets before, I don't use a stove, just a plain old soldering iron. My 125 jet has been drilled and soldered so that will be the one I will use. I just tried the 5 gram rollers, no good, engine screaming and still no power, jets come first but there was a lot of detonation on the last ride. When I took the 5 gram rollers out to try the 6, the radial lines I put on the variator still had a little over 2mm left there so not closing fully, top speed was 80kmh. I will see how the 6 gram ones go tonight.
With regards to the detonation I am thinking of removing one head gasket, though will have to check for clearance. Hopefully the jug won't need to be adjusted anymore. :) Still waiting for the scooter to try to throw me on my arse :D Maybe soon.
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With regards to the detonation, I'm wondering what your compression ratio is? I have had this feeling all along that the shape/size of the combustion chamber is not suitable and the cause of your detonation. I read somewhere about how to properly measure your combustion chamber volume using a burette, some oil, and a piece of glass. I'll look into that and get back with you. In the mean time it seems that removing a head gasket will be counter productive. But hey, at this point anythings worth a shot! ;)
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Yeah, funny because last time I decreased the squish it did the same thing, maybe I need to go the other way. Experimentation time.
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It just may be the head design... With everything hitting the #'s It has to be somewhere. Just a thought it may be it the cases also. The zx has a very restrictive inlet, and case opening. post what happens w/ the head...(up/down). You just may wind up w/ another project! Opening the cases. Hey Calo.! I knew you would make me laugh! Got us all pegged do ya? I think you study more than Limey's. Aussie, Brit, Yank, Reb.......no translation needed here! PFC
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When I checked the spacer on the crankcase the inlets on the case were larger than I thought. I guess you are referring to the other end. If I was going to do that I would prefer to get another crankcase to work on, oh, dear, here comes another obsession.
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The inlet under the reed block is very restrictive. Matching the case and jug may also help. That's my next step, once I find some metal for my spacer. I think I may have found a local supplier. I'm going to check with them tomorrow.
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"The inlet under the reed block is very restrictive. " That's where I was referring to. Also the jug itself has a cut out that may be blocking the flow into the cases. Just thinking outloud. you're gonna get it real close to perfect w/ the finish work you are doing, and when you get it as good as it gets, do you still have a new piston/rings to swap in? That would be the time to investigate the case/jug match.
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Well, turn me 'round, kick me arse and send me back to school. Last night coming home from work, long incline, approx. 2 kilometres, 80kmh full throttle bogging down, dying, so this morning I soldered the jet and drilled it out to 1mm, then using tip cleaners reamed it out to somewhere a little below the 120 jet size, took it for a ride, no good, went home and blew out the air cleaner just for the hell of it and was surprised what came out in such a short time of use. Put in the 130 jet and is an improvement, not right but better, must get a spare air cleaner.
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...filter bites th' ass!!!
;D
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Yeah, so disapointed with everything else I forgot to check the basics. This is what they call learning I guess.
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..i know because it's happened to me before...same thing...dirty filter had me all over th' place...
..oh, and keep a check on tire pressures...
..got bit by that gremlin too....
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Which cleaner are you using?
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A cone shaped cleaner that came with the carb. was premature, bog over half throttle again.
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Well, here we go again, I got some 1mm aluminium plate today to make a spacer for the head this time, experimental, when I took the head off I found the spark plug was loose, must be frustration and disappointment coming through. I took out 1 head gasket and that gave a squish of 0.37mm, I checked two points, above the exhaust and left of the rear of cylinder using solder and digital calipers.
Detonation now at it's worst yet so will try the spacer and see what happens, it sort of goes against the rules but whatever work is what we must do!?
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Shaka mentioned the combustion chamber in the head. It my all be in the compression ratio that head is creating. We have been assuming the head was a standard 7-9:1 ratio. It may be much higher by design. Therefore decreasing the squish will also reduce the ratio. I think the highest you can run a 2t on pump fuel is 10:1. If you want to get all tecky then it can be measured, but at this point I believe you have it well under control. Sucks tho to get the head shaved, just to put a "wig" on it.
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Sounds like a definite problem with the combustion chamber. I've heard a good machinist can enlarge the size of the combustion chamber. I saw a formula for it somewhere. Otherwise a spacer is probably the easiest fix! At least we got your ports in the right place! ;)
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No need to shave head, hair has been pulled, nah, just kidding, yep, we are getting there, with the one head gasket it did go a bit harder but will cut the spacer tomorrow, rules are made to be broken.
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Will that give you a 1.37mm squish then? That's not really all that bad. I'm currently running a 1.18mm squish at least until I get a spacer made.
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That is if I use a gasket, I still have two gaskets to play with, if I need a larger squish I will go for it, whatever it takes, just not too much money. :-)
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Sorry about the late update, I put the 1mm spacer in yesterday and that has stopped all the detonation, power is down but I will work with it. For now I will play with the carb for a bit to try to get max from it and then I will start juggling head gaskets/spacers to try to bring back some of the lost power.
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Where does that put the squish? Either way hooray for no detonation! ;D
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That would give a squish of about 1.7, too much but I will work on reducing it in the next few days. Power drop sux so there is my incentive.
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Well at least you aren't damaging anything in the mean time through detonation! ;) I'm going to start work on my spacer this evening. Wish me luck! I'm nervous about matching the case tomorrow! Trying to think of the best way to prevent any metal shavings from dropping inside!
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I have seen quite a few posts where people are using a garden hose to flush out the cases! I'm not tooooo keen on it but the option is always there. Good luck Bro! Congrats sid! welcome to the down hill slide!
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For me, I would be stuffing the case full of rags and when you are finished give it a good going over with the vacuum cleaner then blow with compressed air. Patience more than luck, all the best.
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For me, I would be stuffing the case full of rags and when you are finished give it a good going over with the vacuum cleaner then blow with compressed air. Patience more than luck, all the best. Sounds good to me!
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I've heard of the "water flush". Doesn't sound like that great of an idea, more of a last resort! I'm thinking I will tape some plastic to the inside to seal it all off, then stuff with oily rags on top of that.
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There you go!
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Last night I pulled the head off again to put in another spacer and saw the piston was a touch over the bottom of the ports so I played with some gaskets and now have the piston a shade below the port and deck height just slightly in the negative but only a bees dick. I now have the head on with only one gasket so that should be a squish of about 1.2mm, roughly. I know I should be taking measurements. No detonation last night but still with carb tune probs. with the air cleaner clogging up it seems to be with oil not dirt. After reading Gordon jenning's book I see how the fuel does blow back along the inlet tract, with my filter getting clogged with oil would that mean I need to lengthen the air filter tube or maybe reduce the oil mix, I am currently running 300ml. to 10litres of fuel, I believe that gives a ratio of about 32:1. I have bought a new filter for it today, wanted a spare before I wash it with kerosens or petrol just incase it damaged it. Looking up from here.
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It sounds like you are set-up about right. The piston just below the ports and a 1.2mm squish. That blow back seems to be pretty normal on these scoots. If you are having troubles with the filter getting clogged you could try moving the filter further away. Also check to make sure that your carb is lined up properly with your intake manifold. Might also want to check the reeds as well. I've never had any trouble with my filter ever getting clogged up with oil. 32:1 sounds like a little too much oil also. You might try lowering it down to between 38:1 & 40:1.
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Cheers Shaka, that squish measure is a guess on what I have used but I think it is pretty close. I will reduce oil in my next mix, I started with that ratio for a safe barrier when starting out, (better too much than not enough). the carb goes into a round rubber sleeve so it can't really be out of alignment.
I am running the needle at the second from lowest setting, want to try to get it to the middle setting if possible, but strangely enough it does affect the throttle at around 1/2~3/4 open.
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I don't know really what to tell you on the excessive blow-back. It almost leads me to believe there may be something up with your reeds. Better get Zombie's opinion on this as well. The needle height has it's effect from 1/2-3/4 throttle!
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...squish....wtf ???...
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I don't think there is an issue with the reeds,from Gordon's book it is normal to get some back and forth flow, I think my problem might be simply too much oil, when I pull the jug there is plenty of oil in the crankcase. well must take this little beast for a spin, purely for tuning purposes, of course.
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...squish....wtf ???...
Dang 4T guys sneaking in with their silly questions again! ;D
Sid, if you lean out the oil a little you may gain a little performance as well!
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Now you're talkin'. well, must scoot, the sooner I use this tank and the next I can run a new mix, with her current thirst it won't take long.
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...dang...just wtf IS a squish??????
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Lol! The squish is the distance between the outer top edge of the piston at TDC and the head.
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..cool!!!
..wonder what my squish is.......
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Idk, does a 4T have a squish? I suppose it does in some way or another. Better pull your head and measure Slinger! ;)
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..yeah, i'll get right on that............
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If your engine is running ok don't remove your head ;), the squish is designed to stop detonation in 2 stroke engines to enable using a higher compression ratio. I hope i got that right, sorry if it is wrong.
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..i think i'll probably leave my squishy head alone...
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I think that's about right Sid. It is a band that runs around the perimeter or the combustion chamber. It actually creates a high velocity flow towards the center where the spark ignites the mix. It keeps the flame front away from the piston and focuses it upwards. I think that is right?! I think think it has the same type of effect on a 4T, could be wrong though!
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What reeds do you have? Do you know the thickness? My guess would be they a fluttering at higher rpms. The jug is moving alot more air, and the reeds may not be quick enough to react. I never like to go thicker on reeds, but you may need a stiffer set. There is also a huge difference in reed stock. I ALWAYS run Boysen. I have .029" in mine, and w/ the extra cc's you have I would think .030" would work well.
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I think that is probably more likely the cause. I figured it may be something with reeds!
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Hopefully I won't need to change the reeds, will just try the leaner oil mix and see how it goes, when I get a chance I will read that section of the book again, I'm sure he mentioned that flow through the inlet tract, though I may have misread it. Had the original starting problem today, checked spark, when I finally found it, it was weak, here we go again.
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At least you know what to look for now! ;)
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I emailed sutai a few weeks ago about a cdi and coil but no response, so tried to ring them yesterday but got "this number could not be connected". See what else I can find.
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You may have to dial "0" for an international operator assisted call. My cell phone cannot get thru, but my Magic jack on the computer does. Email doesn't really get a response from them. Be prepared to ask if "anyoe speekee da eeenglish" a few times. You can get a better coil on ebay for about 1/2 the price of the stock one. http://shop.ebay.com/kingstarscooters/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686 (http://shop.ebay.com/kingstarscooters/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686) That's the store I bought mine from $19.75 shipped.
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..imma get me a coil...i'm still using my stock coil and cdi....
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The gy6 Hi perf. coil is the one you want. About the same price too. For both of you guys... Unscrew the new boot that comes w/ the coil, and re-use your stock one It is much better quality.
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...reckon i would get better performance from a hp coil and a "race" cdi?
..guess i would.....
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The only trouble w/ all the race cdi's is MOST of them are NOT what they say. Race appears to be a catch word for de-restricted
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...true, i can get on that...ssso, do you know of a good, reliable suped-up cdi for my A50
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...again, i pick the brain of the un-dead...
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No go, stock boot dead, currently using NGK one. sent another email this morning, another excercise in time wasting it would seem?
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...your gettin one helluva workout.....
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http://www.motorcycle-components.com/ (http://www.motorcycle-components.com/) If you scroll down the page on the LEFT side near the bottom is the phone # that will get you thru. The email is never answered. They sell 10's of thousands of units per day. 1 guy floating in space over Ausi> don't blow their skirt up. Slinger what I would do is set up a timing light, and mark the timing advance from idle to wot at 100 rpm increments. transfer those marks to degrees using a degree wheel. Snap on has an inductive timing light w/ a built in tach. That will give you the timing map of your cdi. you can add timing btdc to increase the power, or retard the timing if you feel that range is too close to detonation. I went lower than stock all the way to 7000 rpm,s and then went 3 degrees over stock to the top (2 degrees over at 11'000-13'000). The best you can do is guess, run good fuel, and hope! let Suitai see the map you make, and let them know the areas you want to improve. My GUESS for a 4t would bee +2 till 2500/+3 till 6'000/+2 till unlimited. The + is adding that # of degrees to the stock curve. I lowered my numbers cause I shaved .5mm off the head, and doubled my carb size. In Sids case depending on the final compression ratio you may want different #'s. I can help you figure those when you get the most out of your kit, install the fresh rings, and get a good compression reading
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I've been thinking about a custom programmed cdi myself lately. I was wondering how to tell what my timing advance is currently. A timing light will tell that?
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Slinger what I would do is set up a timing light, and mark the timing advance from idle to wot at 100 rpm increments. transfer those marks to degrees using a degree wheel. Snap on has an inductive timing light w/ a built in tach. That will give you the timing map of your cdi. you can add timing btdc to increase the power, or retard the timing if you feel that range is too close to detonation. I went lower than stock all the way to 7000 rpm,s and then went 3 degrees over stock to the top (2 degrees over at 11'000-13'000). The best you can do is guess, run good fuel, and hope! let Suitai see the map you make, anä let them know the areas you want to improve. My GUESS for a 4t would bee +2 till 2500/+3 till 6'000/+2 till unlimited
...i gotta research this further....
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That doesn't make complete sense to me yet. I'll have to keep reading it. I thought a timing light just flashed at every spark? How do you calculate the timing advance from that? Mark the flywheel? How would you do that while it's spinning? ??? My dad is in town for the week, I'll be checking with him tomorrow! On a funny note, I got him out riding my scoot today! He came back with a big grin on his face! He ran over a squirrel!!!! :D
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...lmao....just one more dried up squirrrel... :D ;D
...i don't have a grasp just yet...
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Yeah Shaka. Just follow the instructions form the other post slinger high lighted. I tossed the map I made when I moved, but remember it started at 15 before, went to 18-19 around 4000, and fell back to 13 to the top. It is real easy to mark it out on the case. I used a sharpee. The tough bit was holding the throttle steady to get it right. I wound up pulling a zip tie between the throttle, and the fairing to hold it steady for me. Mark your case, and flywheel ANYWHERE for tdc , the numbers will come out the same no matter where you start from. Just be sure you have clear space to see going up to 25 or so degrees backwards.
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I'm still laughing about the squirrel!!! :D
So do you use the T mark on the flywheel and just mark where the T is on the crankcase when the light flashes at any given rpm? That makes a little more sense.
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That doesn't make complete sense to me yet. I'll have to keep reading it. I thought a timing light just flashed at every spark? How do you calculate the timing advance from that? Mark the flywheel? How would you do that while it's spinning? ??? My dad is in town for the week, I'll be checking with him tomorrow! On a funny note, I got him out riding my scoot today! He came back with a big grin on his face! He ran over a squirrel!!!! :D
your first marks will be w/ the engine at tdc. 1 on the fly wheel, and 1 on the case. start the engine, mark the CASE where the fly wheel mark flashes. (should be about 15 degrees backwards of the first case mark) spin it up 100 rpms, and mark again. at one point it will begin to fall back toward the initial marks (6-7'000). once all the marks are there, just match a degree wheel w/ 0 at tdc, and transfer the marks to degrees, and note the rpms for each mark. Instant (sort of instant) timing map
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We crossed posts. The T mark doesn't matter. I did my own marks.
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Ok, thanks for that Zombie! That makes sense now! Now I just need a timing light! One more tool to buy! Mmmmmm new tools!!! ;D
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glad it did you... im only half way there....imaaaagine that sh**...lmao
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Yeah zombie, that is the number I rang, but like you said I may need to dial zero first. Will try that tomorrow, If they are open on Saturday. I was kind of indisposed today, went for a joy ride again. Cops out breathalising again, decided to drug test the bearded biker, hahaha, waste of time, hahaha. :)
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Wow, they do random drug testing?! :o
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Yeah, if they want a bit extra money they go full boar and havea blitz, stop all traffic and test the drivers. Yesterday they breath tested the 4 drivers in front of me, but pulled me aside for a drug test. I was on the bike.
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Damn Hippie's... You shoulda beat the cop down w/ a roadkill squirrel. "Watchyou eennnn fo Mang! Scootin BRO>>>
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Nah, too many of 'em, full on road block. Was out for a ride, not trouble
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Then it is a fair fight! I do belong in Ireland BRO!
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we shall be experiancing sum of this one day soon zombie, we headed for straight communism, became socialist country recently....sorry sid, i hate that for you dude...
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They do road block "seat belt checks" here, really just to see if your drunk or not. Never heard of a roadside drug test! How do they do that, make you pee in a cup?
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You have to pee on a monkey... If the monkey gets agitated = you are guilty! The people where that guy lives has to eat the monkey...
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Ha Ha, no really. How does that work? I don't even think they have monkeys in Australia!
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Yeah they do, but you have to look waaay up!
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Nah, the usual alco breath test, the drug test is a device they give you to wipe along your tongue, that gets a saliva sample, after a wait of about 5 minutes, if the device shows a positive reading you are taken for further testing. Now, where was that squirrel???
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Tried to ring Sutai again today, tried zero in front of the number, but still no good. Guess I will have to ring the telco to see if they can get me through.
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Nah, the usual alco breath test, the drug tast is a device they give you to wipe along your tongue, that gets a saliva sample, after a wait of about 5 minutes, if the device shows a positive reading you are taken for further testing. Now, where was that squirrel???
Dang!!! I might have to check Australia off my list of places to move! The "man's" always after you!
Ps. The squirrel was gone yesterday! Probably a fox!
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Gotta love that flat meat.
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Right, the time has come. I havent ridden the scoot for a couple of days, too busy riding around the state pissing on monkeys. I am just about out of fuel now so when I get home from work I will fill up with 40:1. See what that does. Might be able to catch more monkeys. :-)
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Nah, the usual alco breath test, the drug test is a device they give you to wipe along your tongue, that gets a saliva sample, after a wait of about 5 minutes, if the device shows a positive reading you are taken for further testing
..what does it check for???
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Canabis, methamphetamines and I think she said something about cocaine and heroin. My understanding was that if it showed a positive result you would be taken for further testing to clarify what drug was detected. I found out later that they had several successful drug raids in the region.
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" I found out later that they had several successful drug raids in the region." Now there's a reason in the PLUS column!
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For some time now there has been a ratcheting sound when moving the scoot backwards. My Dr. Pulley sliding rollers turned up today so over the weekend I will put the sliders in and check out the clutch, I do have "1500" springs to go in.
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Wheelie time! The ratchet sound is most likely the rollers falling about
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I don't know, it seems to be from the rear, but then again it only sounds that way, noises can be deceiving. will find out soon enough.
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Check w/ the belt off. You may have a bad bearing in the gear case. It's an easy fix if you do.
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Yeah, I think tomorrow will be the day, hope it's not too much damage. I will put the new springs in as well so will have a look over the clutch I am at it.
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Sounds like a plan my man! Just noticed there are 555 posts on this thread. The biggest one I know of... Ta Da~ (that's bait for Axy) "biggest"
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Yep, a bit overboard, must be the longest intro thread. will start a new one for other bits.
Ah, that would be 557 now. G'Day Axy.
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It's all good sid! Hows the scoot running? I missed a few days, and am still playing catch up. What is the current set up on the jug?
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I have raised the jug a little and got a compromise between port height and head spacer, there is some detonationat backoff, currently running a BR9HS plug but have not yet indexed it. Scoot is running ok but still a little bog over 3/4 throttle, that reduced when I dropped the needle to the lowest setting so am thinking of using a smaller jet (more chops). The only problem with the needle in this position is less control with throttle it is more on/off at low to mid speed cruising, (thinking smaller jet, higher needle).
Has been running ok though, will check out the clutch today and put in the sliders, that should put a smile on my face. :)
Have been meaning to update the 82cc upgrade thread too, just have to take a pic of the current port map/position and get some details together, I have a bad habit of not documenting things as I go.
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(thinking smaller jet, higher needle). That's the ticket! I don't take picts. of ANYTHING, unless I have to
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Yeah, but if I could learn to write down details as I go along it would be easier to pass any info on.
I put in the Dr. Pulleys this morning, and just as well I did, the belt was pretty knackered. Fractures along the edges, and some separation between the fabric and the outer layer of rubber/nylon (whatever it is). I didn't do the clutch springs because I have to make a spanner and clamp to open it up. A 39mm spanner? not in my tool kit but I reckon I do have some 2"x1/4" flat bar laying around somewhere. The ratcheting noise was nothing to do with the clutch or bearings thankfully.
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Have rejetted, somewhere between 120-130, used tip cleaner files to open it out. Raised needle to middle position now have more throttle with slight bog at top so may need to lower needle a notch.
Still don't seem to have the power to drive through the variator opening so any ideas on increasing torque through cylinder adjustment? Raise or lower, would either of those work? Otherwise I guess
I will need a stiffer torque spring. Am I thinking along the correct lines? or am I off into the wilderness?
I think todays carb adjustment has had the best result of late. :)
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A stiffer torque spring, and fly springs on the clutch to delay the roll. Your rpms need to be in the power band to get a great takeoff. Man I would sure love to get a ride on your scoot. Once it is all dialed in try to find a stock version to ride, and you will realize how far it has come.
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There is still a long way to go, just can't seem to get the high revs. A couple of days ago I ordered a torque spring 1000 from daywot in hawaii. But I still haven't got a spanner or clamp to open the clutch yet. I reckon the existing torque spring is worn as it is not pulling the belt tight as quickly as I think it should, remembering that I have no experience with these. When I put the variator back on this morning it took several rotations to pull the belt.
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...i gotta design of tool that you can make, or have made for you...for th' clutch...
.there's pics around here somewhere...
When I put the variator back on this morning it took several rotations to pull the belt.
..that would be normal...
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Cheers that would be good, thanks. Where would I find it. Hang on,,, try that search thing ey...
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...they're probably hidden within another post...
:-\
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..this is it...
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Excellent, that is really good. Do you have a lathe or did you get it machined, also, what is the thickness and what does the pin push on?
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..the frame is 1" X 1/4" cold-roll steel
..i think it's 3/8threaded rod..aand a nylon cushion on the pusher...
..it's at my plant in my toolbox...i'll get you the dimension if you want...
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Sounds like you're making progress Sid! How do you like the new sliders? You don't really need any special tools to open the clutch up. I just use my impact wrench to remove the bell. Then I have a 40mm flat wrench at work I use to remove the big nut on the clutch itself. It works, but the nut is really a 39mm. I wrap a rag around the clutch and lightly clamp it in a vise to loosen the big nut. Just make sure you hold it in the compressed position and have someone remove the nut completely while you hold it or everything will fly apart!
If your engine is bogging at WOT then your main jet is too big. Adjusting the needle position will not effect WOT. At that point the needle is fully pulled up out of the jet. The needle position only effects about 1/2-3/4 throttle. It is ok to have a very slight bog at WOT and get your best performance at just below WOT. This makes it run slightly rich on the top for safety. If it totally bogs down though the jet is too big.
For getting more low-end torque out of the engine. I found that when I raised my cylinder and increased the port duration along with less squish it gave me much more low-end! It was even more pronounced when I matched the crankcase and cylinder! I'm not sure if yours would give the same effect as it's a completely different cylinder, but I figured I would share. Essentially to answer your question; yes, changing the jug height will have an effect on your low-end torque. Also, keep in mind that you have a low revving cylinder as it makes it's max power at under 9000 rpm. This is the same as my set-up, as I'm getting max rpm at about 8200-8400. That is just in the design of the cylinder. A low revving cylinder doesn't necessarily make less power, it just makes it's power at a lower rpm. You just have to tune accordingly! ;)
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G'day Shaka, yeah I have been playing with the jet/needle combo again, this morn I lowered the needle one notch so hopefully it should be close to right. I have no idea what revs I am running, no tacho, but in riding she just doesn't get the scream thing going, the clutch springs are original as far as I know,15,781km now so must be due for change. The sliders are good but I have not got the full benefit from them yet, but it is working out slowly. Over all, happy as a pig in s*#t. :) :)
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Good deal Sid! You should really get one of those Trail Tech TTO tachs! I'm loving mine! I wish I had one a long time ago! I would have made the tuning process much easier as you can see the results! You have the same kms as me! ;D
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..the frame is 1" X 1/4" cold-roll steel
..i think it's 3/8threaded rod..aand a nylon cushion on the pusher...
..it's at my plant in my toolbox...i'll get you the dimension if you want...
Thanks wordslinger, when I get my clutch out again I will make one to fit it so don't worry about the dimensions. Cheers.
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Well my tool kit does now contain a 39mm spanner, even if it is a home made one. :)
Changed the fly springs today and not a great deal of diference, waiting for the torque spring, I think that will give a better result, though I may need to go bigger again. Started will 1000 not knowing anything about it so this will give me a base line to work from.
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Which fly springs did you eus? I run the mid weight from Malossi
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Ah, some ebay job, 1500 apparently. There is a diference just a little snappier grab.
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last night when I got to work and put the stubby holder on the air filter I noticed an oil leak from somewhere around the cylinder base or inlet manifold so on tuesday, my next day off I will pull the cylinder and manifold and seal them up with the Permatex Form-a-gasket. While I am at it I will look at the piuston and see if it is getting burnt oil look down the sides again. I am now wondering if the exhaust I got is what is holding back the engine :-\. All else semms to be ok so will see what the piston shows, I don't want to fit the new piston if that is the case.
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Well my tool kit does now contain a 39mm spanner, even if it is a home made one
..like that wrench!!!
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Yeah mate, like a wrench, not a wench. :)
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..need me one of them too...
..yup...
;)
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Someone posted your exhaust was good for bottom end torque. Did shaka ever figure where your jug was making its power? It may just be a miss-match.
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Yeah, I think that was customx22, I think it is lacking torque, it just doesn't seem to pull through, but having said that I will have to wait and do some more with the cvt as it is climbing up through the "gears" too soon. When I change the torque spring I should notice a fair difference, the scoot is nearly 3 years old, 15,800 kms and I don't think much was done before I bought it so will be getting old.
Back on track, I was just wondering if that could be it, simple mismatch? A pity to have to spend more money on something already bought, but hey, you don't try, you don't succeed. Will pull the jug on Tuesday as I need the scoot until then.
Hey, Mrs. sid is going for her "P"s tomorrow. That is the provisional licence, the next step up from the learner's permit. She has been riding for about 10 months now and is comfortable with doing U~Turns, both left and right, weaving, stopping/starting. The only thing she hasn't been able to practice is the weaving between the lines, she has mastered slow riding between the parrallel lines. So, tomorrow is the day, please, wish her luck, from here the open road beckons. :) :) :)
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Someone posted your exhaust was good for bottom end torque. Did shaka ever figure where your jug was making its power? It may just be a miss-match.
I can't remember off hand. I'll try and get a chance to run the numbers again possible tomorrow.
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God speed Mrs. Sidthesloth! You guys will have a ball riding together. A stiffer contra spring will maintain the lower gearing, and stiffer fly springs will delay the roll until you have some power. You are on the right track.
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Cheers zombie, mrs. sid passed the test and is now a licensed rider. I realise this is a bad time for you, I dont know what to say. Look after yourself.
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Congrats! Now you guys can spend every waking moment together! YEAY... Thanks Bro!
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Now you guys can spend every waking moment together! YEAY
..that's always a PLUS!!...
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G'day all, the ongoing saga of a cheapy cylinder kit. Tonight I took the cylinder off again and removed 1 gasket, 0.4mm, and used sealant on all gaskets, the change was not really noticeable by the eye but it still seems to go pretty well though not as good as I had hoped. the piston had burnt oil residue down the skirt on the exhaust side but not on the inlet side, I have cleaned this up and reused the piston, still saving the new one for later. looking at jug/casing matching I used my spacer to see how much difference and was surprised to see that the transfer ports are pretty well right but the inlet or boost is only a tiny slot in the crankcase compared to the cylinder, would this be worth cutting out to suit the cylinder? I don't know if this is only necessary with the boost port or just the transfer ports.
A little bad news is that the rubber mounting for the carb has fractures in it, doesn't seem to be leaking but that is a matter of time I guess. I will run like this for a while and see how it goes and will change to 7 gram rollers in a few days once I have gotten used to it as is now.
WOW,,, a long post for a long thread. :D
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Some say the boost /aux. port is not important, but any flow into the cyl. is a plus. The factory cut out is tiny. If I ever take this engine off the cases are first on the list. I would get that mount asap cause you don't need an air leak to blow it now.
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I must say that matching the jug and cylinder made a noticeable improvement! It didn't really give me much top end, but he low and mid range was much improved! It is my understanding that the boost port is fairly important to the scavenging/filling of the cylinder. The stock cut-out is tiny in comparison to my cylinder and I think yours is even bigger Sid! I had to open up the boost as well as match one side of the transfers to the cylinder. Then match the other side of the transfers to the jug.
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Yeah, I will send an email to Carlos, (the seller of the cylinder kit, exhaust and carb/inlet kit and see if he at least offers a free replacement tube/mount.
With regards to the ports, the transfer ports in the crankcases seem to be as large as the cylinder ports. With the boost port if I was to cut it out would it be a matter of tapering it towards the bottom or would it be a case of cutting it right the way down to the bottom? I wouldn't be doing it unless I took the engine out and dismantled the whole unit.
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Well, riding the scoot this morning going to work I was impressed, it is not race winning performance but is certainly better for riding. Now to try the 7 gram rollers! :-)
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...morning...dang......i gotta go to bed....
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But.... its only 2:40pm.:)
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The best approach is to open it straight down. if you are going to do it I would do it all the way. Like shaka said it will make a difference.
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Yeah, I thought so, I think that would be a job for when the engine is stripped, I wouldn't like to try it with the crankshaft still in there. I emailed Carlos about the carb mount and his reply was the usual crap, "never had a complaint, selling for 20 years. Must have over tightened the clamps." Wouldn't come to the party with a free replacement, I asked if he would replace it as a warranty item. Oh well, can only try.
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This fella should come off the High Horse, and help a brother out. Has he seen what you have gone thru here? He never had a problem cause most people probably walk away. If you want to pm me his email, i could try a sympathy note to him. I'm sure he made enough to cover the cost of 1 boot!
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Cheers zombie, I will try him again but will probably just have to buy one from him. We do have a bike wrecker in town so I was thinking of taking the boot out there and see if they have any the same diameter.
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...a bike wrecker even...go figure...
:o
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Yeah, they are a good source for hard to get parts for older bikes. This bloke is only open a couple of days a week. When I bought the Kawasaki it was a basket case so I spent some time and money getting it up to scratch. a young bloke at work asked if I want to buy a tank for it as his mate had one. I ended up buying the whole bike in pieces, took what I wanted from it and reassembled the remaining bits. The crankshaft was knackered as was the clutch. When i asked this fellow wrecking bikes for a crank he said this bike is not old enough for him to have one. I ended up getting a second hand crank and clutch from a place in Adelaide. Sold the bike back to the lad I bought it from, I lost some money on it but got the pieces I wanted so we were all happy in the end. :)
Oh, yes, bike wreckers are handy.
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...that's cool...there may be one around here, but i don't know where...
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There is another place in town that used to sell Triumphs, kawasakis and Kymcos, didn't last long, has closed down. In his shop he still has a few bits laying around, one of those bits is a scooter, looks like a Honda lead from the 90's. A few bits missing.
Hmm, thinking of the Honda/Kymco link.
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..i bet a lot of the parts interchange...
..my variator kit also fits a honda dio..
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Yes, it's a bit of a tease, even if nothing is interchangeable, it is still a scooter sitting waiting for me.
Oh no, here comes another.
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...i saw one sitting beside a house this evening...
..looks like it's been setting there for a while...
..parts are parts!!!
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IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT---GO FOR IT 8)
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..yeah, i'm thinkin like 50 bucks on that one...lol..
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I think the veriater and belt clutch fit the people also,can't remember for sure
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My zx takes the same belt/var/clutch as the People. There are a few other models as well. The honda would be a great score, as you may be able to use most of your kymco spares to build a for sale scoot. People love those old hondas.
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My zx takes the same belt/var/clutch as the People.
..that's awesome...imma need all that info in a minute...
:o
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What are you getting into now?
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..oh, you didn't know??
..gave a dude 60 bucks down on a 2001 ppl 50 with 7500 kms...
..gettin it friday...
;D ;D ;D
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My zx takes the same belt/var/clutch as the People.
..same belt too??
..the ppl has 16 inch wheels...
???
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Same ENGINE! I have a link for the gates kevlar, as the malossi was not in stock ANYWHERE at a reasonable cost. http://www.powersportsmax.com/product_info.php/products_id/14054 (http://www.powersportsmax.com/product_info.php/products_id/14054) 40 bucks, and free shipping. Since the scoot has sat I would go straight into the carb, and cvt.
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...good site!!
..i didn see the A50 there...
..SEE!!!.. NOBODY KNOWS WHAT BELT FITS!!!
..i got the 748-18-28...
..it is too long...
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http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/kymcoagility50.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/kymcoagility50.html) There are still more sites that say that is the size, but if you say it is too long I am sure it is. Heres one showing a 669mm. I followed it around for awhile, and i seems that is the correct size.http://www.scootertronics.com/13hipeup.html (http://www.scootertronics.com/13hipeup.html) Just scroll the link to the belts, and the link for the gates belt has the size.
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G'day all, last night I put the BR9HS plug back in and indexed it using a coke can of all things,the detonation is reduced quite a bit but still there. Next weekend is my weekend off so I will start playing around with the cylinder again and look at noitching the piston. My last adjustment of the cylinder (removal of 0.4mm base gasket) increased the compression enough to regain the speed I lost through the torque spring, at the expense of having the detonation. Any advice on this would be appreciated.
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Im Thinking the pie wedge starting dead center, and going .5mm deep to the edge, and just as wide as the exhaust port. You can use an 1/8" drill bit too dimple the edge as well. Perhaps 4-5 tiny dimples. They will hold oil, and give you a much cooler exhaust. Just for kicks try a NGK BP 9 HS plug (indexed) It is half as long, and works GREAT for me. PS You can cut the wedge w/ a dremel tool, and a barrel bit. It won't take 5 minutes to do. Start FLUSH, and cut deeper to the edge
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Thanks a lot for that zombie, I will do that on the weekend, rain forcast for Saturday so a good way to pass the day. Need scoot for work until Friday. Given that the exhaust port is oval shape should I cut to the full width or just to the initial opening. MMM, RD 250, been interested in one of those for a while now, Red Book value is about $300, try to find one in the real world for under $2,000 and you are doing well. About a year ago I thought I found one in a scrap yard but when I had a look it turned out to be a Honda MVX 250, I knew nothing about them and after looking on the interweb I found out some interesting things about them. A vee triple with two different piston sizes, that was very intriguing. Unfortunately I let it get away, there was a lot missing from the engine and they are very hard to find parts for so it was probably for the best in the long run. Maybe find a Yamaha RD or RZ sometime. But, stay with the scoots for now. :)
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Question for you zombie, with plug indexing I have been lining up the electrode gap toward the outside of the cylinder. As you said to point it towards the exhaust port I figured that was the way to go. Looking at the cyl. head the plug goes in the side of the dome, so, I was just wondering how it would go with pointing the gap to the centre of the combustion chamber? Any ideas?
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I'll chime in Sid. I believe you have an offset spark plug hole that is off of center towards the boost port, but angled so the tip of the plug points towards the exhaust port. What you want to do is align the opening of the electrode towards the exhaust port. The curved metal electrode should point right at the exhaust port. You head design as well as indexing the plug all help to direct the "flash front" of the mixture towards the exhaust port so it can easily exit the cylinder without hitting a wall and bouncing back to pre-ignite the next incoming charge of air/fuel.
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If I read it right, the opening of the plug or the gap is pointed at the rear cyl. wall or into the squish band (or murder zone :) ). Am I reading this wrong?
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Going to work last night on the section of road with 100kmh speed limit Isaw a tail light in the distance, wound him in and passed by in flying style. Was a bloke who works on the same shift as me on his ZX50 (fully restricted). Wow, glad those days are gone. :) :)
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You may have a new best friend Ha!,Tell him you will work for beer!
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When I started with these upgrades I was telling him about them but he didn't seem interested. 50kmh, in a 100 zone, no thanks. :)
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..i hear y' brother!!
..i'm less of a traffic hazard if i'm keeping up...
..less likely to be run over by some idiot on their cell...
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Ya I felt like a target not being able to go at least 50mph,to scary for me!
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..that's what i like about this ppl 50...
..it's a non-issue now...
;D
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No matter how fast you go, keep them eyes open. They are out there, and yes they are out to get you. ;)
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..i've been forced off the road twice...
..three times avoided collisions by hard braking...
..once, i even slid my rear tire....
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oops, I was preaching to the converted. ;)
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..itsa good thing to preach on that...
..can't be too careful no matter what two-wheeler you ride....
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It's all good when you see the proof in the pudding! The plugs electrode end has to face the exhaust port. That is where the flame starts. You want it to burn towards the exhaust just like lighting a charcoal fire. The flame travels away from the Ign source
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G'day zombie, see you're back. i did the piston kerfing yesterday, used a half round file and a round file for the sides of the groove, must say I have not noticed any performance difference, but will se how the piston looks, heat wise next time I open it up. This time the heat marks were ther on the exhaust side again.
With regards to the plug indexing, I was just wondering wether to have the gap facing up into the dome of the combustion chamber or, as I said earlier, toward the rear cylinder wall. I have got some wad punches the sizes I need so coke cans are it for plug indexing. :)
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I think your head needs to be turned 180 degrees. That dome should point to the back wall not the exhaust port. That may be a huge difference in pre ignition. Check it out, and see if it can be turned! If it can the point of the plug should face the exhaust, and the same even if the head cant turn. Either way you should be able to lower the jug again with the piston done. It sounds like that may be the FLAW in design you are fighting. The dome should be away from the port, and facing the back wall. They may have drilled the plug hole at the wrong angle in the head. Most of the knock offs come from drawings, and get confused on the cnc. The plug should also be angled toward the back wall.
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Sorry zombie, I was not very clear in my explanation, the plug does point toward the ex. port, but with the gap of the electrode, depending on how far I turn the plug I can have the gap facing the rear wall, to the left or right side or up into the combustion chamber. The plug hole is in the same location as the original head, just that the entire head is a lot larger, (this makes it so the plug is not quite centre in the air shroud housing). I will include a pic. of the head. I did take a pic of the head with the plug in it when I had it off the other day but can not find it. This pic is from the initial setting up a few months ago. The clean spot is just off side from the rear wall.
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Forgot to mention in the last post, when I open it up again next week I will take a pic of both heads together so you can see the size difference, when you see them together it is quite a difference.
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HOLY CRAP THIS IS SOME SERIOUS CHIT ! GIMMIE MY STOCKER @ 40 MPH & I'M HAPPY !
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Ah mate, you haven't lived until you have lived that chinese stuff from ebay. I have learnt more with this than I would ever have dreamed of. :)
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Oh, on a side note Rob, when you leave the speedo behind and use your fuel gauge for speed reference you won't want stock anymore.;)
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Ok I get it! The squish is taking all the heat. Your detonation is from trying to compress the flame front. Turn your plug 180 degrees to get the front inside the combustion chamber. That should finish cooling things down. I like the fuel gauge reference. For the past several months my petcock has been stuck in the open position, and recently I have been fighting a rich bog on take off. I found the diaphragm in the petcock had ruptured, and fuel was being drawn thru the vacuum line. I was filling the tank TWICE a day...
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I was filling the tank TWICE a day...
OUCH!!!
Yeah, that was what I was wondering about. Sometimes I just wonder, if, maybe, hell why not try something different. It will either work, or not. Nothing to lose. :)
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I was filling the tank TWICE a day
..the ppl get worse mileage than my guilty...but it'll slam it in performance...
..even now, with the problem it has developed, it'll still out-perform the A50...
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:)........the conversion is in progress........ :)
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Just a few km will tell.
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..ya'll suck....
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what up guys? happened to see a reference to the petcocks.. when i was removing my carb for jetting...every time i disconnected the fuel line it would free flow till i plugged it up.. i DONT have any fuel coming thru the vaccum line either... oh yeah, my mpg keeps going down with any mods..lmao.. really goes down with the 93 + octane boost..
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Hi batman, I don't know anything about the petcocks as I have not yet had a problem with mine, though I dare say it will come. If you can it would be worth opening it up and clean it out.
Ha, you reckon your mpg has dropped, just wait till you increase your cylinder/carb and jets. Sometimes I think the fastest part of my scoot is the fuel gauge. :) But then again, my fuel gauge is now my speedo. Gonna suck when my first speeding fine in fifteen years is on a scooter. ;)
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yeah, im wondering how much more its gonna drop next week after squish/exhaust work..lmao.. oh well, at least im getting faster.... ;)
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I don't think that will drop you mpg, that work is more about making the engind run more efficiently, which is the first step in improving economy. Good luck, I think you will enjoy it.
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Turned spark plug around today to face into the combustion chamber and no performanceimprovement, perhaps a little slower on pickup, though only ever so slightly. Will give it a couple of days and see how it goes. I still feel there is so much more to be had from this engine that I just can't seem to get, maybe the exhaust is my hurdle..?!
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Maybe the salvage yard you talked about has a few old pipes you could try? I think it may be worth a trip to see. Your pipe was a low rpm pipe, and I don't think we know what the jug is supposed to do. That giant exhaust port makes me think low rpm tho. Will that scoot pull the front wheel? It SHOULD. I yank just a bit on the bars to get mine. but it will hold it once up.
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Not a chance, I flipped it once and that was a concerted effort of pulling all my weight back at exactly the right time. I doubt they would have anything, just old bikes. I will try to get another exhaust but it will have to wait, have ignored everything else for too long. On a side note, the bloke to see about the scrapped Honda Lead is the Kymco dealer who went bankrupt. Word is that he is now working on an oil rig.
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... he is now working on an oil rig...
..hope that works out fo 'm...
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If I remember right your stock pipe fit the jug, so you should have no trouble fitting one, but which one? I have the Technigas rs2, and it out performs the next r on a 70cc jug kit. It may not do as well on an 80cc tho. My thought is a yx 80 pipe modified to fit the header pipe. That is a high reving expansion chamber design, and if you can find one second hand it may not hurt toooo much if it is not right. That is what I would try. The rs2 is made to run 11'000 rpm on a 70cc so it will drop some in both rpm's and power after 9'000 on an 80cc
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Damn, now you get me thinking about more ways to tinker :), I have been a bit busy with the car lately, also on afternoon shift. Had to do a safety course today, started at 8:00am to 3:15pm and started work at 4:00pm. Have to finish the car tomorrow. Will look into the exhaust when I can.
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Just to revive an old thread, om my way to work this afternoon I will keep my eyes open for a lonely air filter. Yep, mine fell off on my way home last night. Am looking fora k&n filter, not easy, $32 in US + $37 postage to Aus. havd another cheapy to run with until one turns up.
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... I will keep my eyes open for a lonely air filter. Yep, mine fell off on my way home last night.
..was that one of those Emco filters??
...mine dropped off too!!!
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dam, sid..i hate that dude....hey, i have an emco filter ??? ;D blue box?? dam, gotta keep better eye on mine then.......WHOA :o man, the shipping to you sid is CRAZY....damnitt man
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Ahh, theyre all cheap rubbish, 3 filters all appeared to be from the same factory, none were sealed properly. Am now looking for k&n, might get one for the car too. Hey, how much for a ford mustang, apparently $130,000 here.
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Back to the filter, the rubber mount was torn on one side along the ridge the filter clips into. Will see if I can put up a pic tomorrow so others can see what to look for.
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Hey, how much for a ford mustang, apparently $130,000 here.
...wh-wh-whhaaat??!!
..holy crap batman!! you see that??!!
..my emco would pop off it's rubber boot if i really cranked on the hose clamp...
..i THINK, they sent me one that was a few mm too large in I.D...
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:o :o :o HOLY BUTTf***ED BATMAN!!!!! :o :o :o id go steal you one cheaper than that sid...how about 100,000??. :D :D DAMNITT MAN.....WHOA, sid a brand new rousch edition svt cobra (top of the line mustang) is about 55,000...(i think,ball park anyway)..... man, we need to sell cars over there.....theres my lottery... :D
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..I'M, IN TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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WOOO HOOOO!!!! its on,.. like a big pot of neckbone.... believe it or not, a 69 fastback mustang was the first car i ever stole...really stole. ;D ::) ;) yeah, my filter will pop off if tighten to much too...think she gave me a 39mm?? i try to keep a look out for it. :D i do blow it out every other day, just for the sake of argument..
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its on,.. like a big pot of neckbone....
..lmao...wtf??!!...
.. ;D :D :o :D ;D ..
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The filter came off the rubber, you will see when I get the pics up. Yes, Ford should sell them here, I think they would do good.
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i dunno. :D :D one of the mtn. slang sayings..... guess it means, its gonna happen for sure...to that effect i guess... i have many sayings tho, from life i guess you could say... ;D i was basically a "state baby"... :D gotcha again huh?. :D basically you were raised by the state in prison, ..basically..... :o 8)
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??? ??? ??? uh oh, said to much and scared everybody away. :-X :-X im really not a bad dude..im real, but a good dude. i solid. 8) ;) shhhhhhh, maybe theyll come back.. :-\ :-X
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shhhhhhh, maybe theyll come back..
..y' reckon...
;D
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No worries mate, everyone has a past, good or bad. I think what matters is whether people learn from their mistakes.
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..well put sid!..
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Here are a couple of pics of the rubber mounts. I will include one to show the different sizes, the filter is the same unit, they just use a different size mount to suit your application, this is where the trouble is. in the other pic you can see where the rubber split, that is the lip that the filter clips into.
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..if my filter had a smaller boot I.D., it would have held the element tighter...
..i like the k&n...no worries...
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i can hope anyway. ;) all i can do is try. :D if not for my daughter, probably not!!!!! honestly, she saved me i think. :D gabbie will be 4 in a few weeks..... thank you pumkin...I LOVE YOU!!.... just wish your mama wasnt such a fkn hag!!!. :D ;D ;) needless to say,..i DONT get to see her much... ahhhhhh, the joy of n.c. women.. :D :D :D :D :D :D ::) hope the women are better oner there sid....since the dam prices arent!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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>:( dam......something else i need ::) :D
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I divorced about ten years ago, then met a wonderful lady, we are married now and the past is just that, past. After a bad start in life I have ended up being very lucky.
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...dunno if i'll ever get married again...
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CONGRATS TO THE SID MAN...and the mrs. ;) (never been married myself, came REAL DAM close once,BUT she decided not to show up that day.married an ex bud a week later)... :o :o :o ahhhhhhhh, the joy of n.c./usa women. >:( ;)
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...maybe, after my youngest graduates...she's 12 now...lol..
..i might then look for someone to grow old with...
..until then, i got's prior responsibilities..
..i guess the womens i've met just couldn't accept that fact...sssso....
:-*
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...dunno if i'll ever get married again...
I thought, NO WAY, NEVER AGAIN. But, you never know what lays ahead, if so, I would not have married the first time. But, like they say, all's well that ends well. I am happy, and I can't ask for any more than that.
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..yeah, i'm happy for you sid!!
..that day will come, i reckon...
..there is this one old girlfriend, from WAY back in th day... i talk to from time to time..
..she's single as well...
..and cute as HELL!!..
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hey word, i hear ya...maybe one day, thought so several times buuuuuuuuuuut......i sent you a friends request, if you talking bout her,...uuuhhhhh yeah, shes more than cute...looks pretty dam hot dude... oops, sorry. no dis intended ::) :-* ;)
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..none taken bat-dude!!
..were friends now!!..lol..
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::) ooohh, you entered "the bat" cave... :D cool... 8)
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..GOT YA!!...
Aug 24 2010 5:05 AM
I've been puckering up, darlin! Can you not feel my Lips against yours? Xo
Read more: "http://www.myspace.com/lwbatman#ixzz0xrMsDLnG"
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Ha! those neck bones done yet? Ti's the best part when smoked ;D I'm beat to hell been on the s200 all day(working not riding :'( )
You got that thing pulling 60 yet ;) I havn't had any problems with the uni's yet,but the k/n is superior so far the best.
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shes more than cute...looks pretty dam hot dude...
..yeah, i missed out, back in th' day....
:-\
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:o :o :o oh dam...you found me, :D :D the bat cave is slack these days. :D dam art, thats about like me. :D never tried a uni, didnt like the looks of them.... :D :D :D arts heard of some neckbone. :D :D dont have any neckbone but dam sure got a touch of deer meat! ;D good sh** there. ;) OH HEEEEEELL NO!!!, word., if shes talking, she still interested, trust me..even came by your HOUSE!!..shhhit, its on,.. like a pot of neckbone baby!!.. YOU GOT THIS.....NOOOOOOOO QUESTION!!... a drink may be in order!. ;)
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;D
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:o OH WAIT... you ride a scooter.....THAT..could put a damper on things. dont know about g-boro buuuuuut, HERE....not a great conversation piece!. :D ;) i can get more convo out of all my piercings.. :D :D they scared of a scoot here.....(anywhere i wws hanging anyway. :D)..
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OH WAIT... you ride a scooter.....THAT
..yeah..but i think she's ok wit that...
..i mean, damn..i is what i is....
:-\
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The ladies love scooters cept my wife :D
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TRUE THAT!!!...here, they want a car, etc..alot of em here are materialistic to a certain extent... youd think thed be ok with a m.f doing the RIGHT thing, buuuyut i guess thats not "thug" enough for em..(thug, that word sux. :D ;) )....... dam sure paranoid bout pulling up somewhere too, around here scooters are called "liquor cycles".. :D :D
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Ya things a little defferent in your state, Here the median age is like 38 so lots a colledge kids and mellow folks running around, It is a large city thou so got the bad stuff too,but most the young girls love the scoots.
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Hey art, do you think it might be a case of one too many scoots?
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yeah, art has ALLLLL the scoots.. :D dude, yeah i live like a mile from mars hill college... ahhhhhhhhh, class change. ::) ;D.....i love class change.. they definately look at me when i roll thru wot.. ;D sortof echos thru that stretch. ;D
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Ha! the wife is 5' nothing and someone scared the hell out of her at one time on the back of a bike so she's a little hesitant about riding the scoots.
She has total support for me working on them since i can\t do much of anything else physicly. Some day I'll put her one together,she's worming to the idea a little :D Just hate to put her on one of those small tire scoots but her hight is a problem! Going to try to lower a people 50 when i can find another for the right price.
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..wow...the ppl is much lower than my guilty...
..i'm 6ft, wear 36 length pants, and it squashes th' gonads to sit flat-footed on my a50...i wear out the toes of my boots...
..with the ppl, i can actually bend my knees sitting flat-feet......
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It is sad when that happens, as long as you encourage and not push too much. Mrs.sid never, in her wildest dreams imagined she would ride a bike, just wanted me to get one so she could ride pillion, she thoroughly enjoyed that but I kept saying how my helmet must look boring. Now, she has a licence and rides when she wants to.
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Yep some day i hope, deffinetly not pushing her, she's coming around a little. I was hopeing this summer but was one of the mildest (cool and wet)on record and now is as good as over :'( Thought i'd be able to sale a few scoots and pick her something up worth rideing, Oh well Next year ;)
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..i reckon i missed the direction of that thread...
;D
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She 's got short legs and a fear of bikes. Think she could ride the people but not comfertable on any bike at the moment ;D I could turn her loose on an aero 50 but hell i don't like the way they handle so want to give her something safe and that will inspire confidece The aero would be O.K. till that first panic stop :o Ha! I guess circles in the driveway could be a start. But rather build her something that she knows is hers. She might even use it ;D
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Sorry wordslinger, back on track, my zx50, good news and not so good. First, good news, I checked the inline fuel filter and seems clear, no rubbish came out when blowing through backwards, is good, it is a gy6 filter. I removed the fuel tank to check the fuel tap, and the screen was gunked up with something that resembled a cotton ball so I cleared that. Now, not so good news, I am up for a new fuel tap (petcock), it is not passing fuel, it does appear to work properly, but, there is fuel in the vacuum line. When sucking on the vac. line it holds vacuum ok but I think this is an early warning. Living, as I do on another planet, if I order one now, the next time a satelite flies over it can do a mail drop for me ;). Now back to the better news, while testing after changing back to 7gram rollers, I have hit my previous best top speed, but this time on flat ground, when going down the slight incline where I reached my previous top I set a new top, am now off the speedo, past the fuel gauge and down through the h of Km/h. Will see if I can fid a pic of the speedo for demo. Ok, I know, I know, no pics, it never happened, will have to try to rig up a camera.
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Over here, every town seems to have a new housing estate going up, there is one around the corner from us. When Mrs.sid learnt on the scooter, she spent hours just riding around there, no interuptions from any traffic, as her confidence grew she ventured out onto the backstreets and progressed from there.
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if I order one now, the next time a satelite flies over it can do a mail drop for me
..ground control to major tom......
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I am up for a new fuel tap (petcock),
..i'd agree..
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I think some of the older honda's will fit the kymco. Might be able to pick up a used one.(petcock)
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Here it is, a pic of the speedo. You can't quite see where the arc of the h is, but you will get the idea.
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..the elusive "H" spot....
:o
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A question, I need to get a petcock before mine fails altogether, I have looked at stadium yamaha, their price is $33.32, do you think this is a good price? or should I keep looking? I actually found a "race" cdi for $10, hope i don't get gypped with that one ;). any thoughts on the petcock appreciated.
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Take a look at your wrecking yard i have been able to cross a few in the past. In a pinch you can run a manual shut off,just remember to shut off when not in use ;) can be a pain to get to but with a little modding can be put anwhere
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Yeah, cheers art, I think I will go for a new one. If I order one now I will have it when mine gives up. Hey, I just remembered, batman went to a kiss concert on the w/end, must still trying to find his way home.:)
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I was thinking the same thing,I couldn't hear anything for a couple days last time i saw them. One farwell show was enouph for me ;)
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HEY , ONE SHOW IS NEVER ENOUGH..wanted to go tomorrow to see disturbed, avenged sevenfold, stone sour, hailstorm. but this past weekend spent to muxh money trying to get home. :'( hey sid, i happened to order a petcock yesterday myself in case the oil wasnt the problem..i ordered mine fron a motorcylce shop that us a kymco dealer..$26....dal-kawa.com i think thats right..i may not even need mine i hope, they said theyd take it back of course wit a restock fee...
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to see disturbed, avenged sevenfold, stone sour, hailstorm
..wow...that'd be a good show.......
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Good to see you're back. Don't take it back, you will need it one day. Sounds like you had a good time.:)
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thanks sid......yeah, had a blast till the end anyway.. :D yeah, you could be right about needing it one day, but im sure i could use that 26$ on my scoot elsewhere. :D
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Have you picked it up yet?
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not yet, its supposed to come in tomorrow....
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One unimpressed sloth today, riding home in the rain, did ok for the first few kilometres, then she started bogging down. I got a few more k's before I had to pull over, she just was not going to ride. Tried to wipe out the air filter, but no good, finished up riding home with no air filter. Will I be having the same problem with the k&n filter?
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..i onlyhave had that same problem one time..
..but it was a downpour!!! and i rode 15 miles in it...
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Well I have one coming, I am sure it will be considerably better than what I have now. We don't get a whole lot of rain here so it will be something to live with. Maybe using a filter skin would help!?
I didn't get to drill the exhaust tonight, it will happen, sooner or later.
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yep..rain sux!!!...i have done better since been running an open filter. ;D still gotta get me one of those k.n. ;)
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..skins will help....hell, spray the skin with a good water repellant...
..still, you're gonna lose performance in the rain...
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Yeah, but it would be nice to get home without having to stop to remove the filter.
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Hey sid I've seen guys make a cover with a 1 liter plastic container looks to work well,might be running one my self this winter.
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Yeah, have thought of that, might look for a professionally made one.
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Ahh, this old thread just doesn't wanna die. :D I put in the new petcock and screen the other day before I filled up, got a little more crap out of the tank. I haven't benn riding the scoot for the last couple of days. I had done some work on the kwaka, carbs stripped and cleaned, valve clearances, etc. so have been riding that to work for the last two days, just to make sure all is as it should be, of course. Today I put in the 2,000 fly springs and for the difficulty of removing the 1,500s and installing the 2,000s i thought the change would be quite dramatic, but, not so, it is still very similar to the 1,500s, just a slightly later engagement and sooner disengagement on deceleration. Washed air filter (yep, still the cheapy, $58 k&n is yet to arrive) and took out for a ride, on flat road getting the top speed with no surging. I have velcroed a small camera to the chin guard of my helmet and will try it out tonight when going to work, if any good I wi8ll try to post it.
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hey sid.. the ncy springs are much easier. ;D i have the 2000s in also, couldnt really tell any difference..i have 5.7g in also and SHE STILL WANTS TO TAKE OFF BEFORE MAXED RPMS. sh** untill about 15mph, then she takes off ok..my cvt never been right tho, take off ALWAYS been garbage..
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Yeah, my initial take off is pretty cruddy, unless I am too fussy, but once going is not too bad. Could be better, always could be better. :D
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your not to fussy sid, i can feel the pain with ya on that..if any incline at a red light, my takeoff can be embarrassing to say the least till 15mph. >:( we seem to be the only ones with shoddy takeoff....i want that bad ass launch too. :'(
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When I can afford it, I will get some 6.5 sliders, the 6s took too much top end and 7s take some pick up.
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i can definately relate man....i got some 5.7 needing 6s or some 5.5s..