KymcoForum.com
General => Roadcraft => Topic started by: ScooterWolf on July 29, 2015, 05:46:45 PM
-
As a new rider to my DT 300 I've noticed that braking takes longer, and given the heavier weight and faster speed, the bike can skid more easily than my Yager. Yesterday I was coming back form a tutoring job in a section of Philly I'm not too familiar with. As I riding down a two lane road -- two going one way, and two the other, one known for its sharp twistys, and a flow of traffic speed 20-30 mph above the post 35, I was taking a sharp turn that ended suddenly at a traffic light moving from Yellow to Red.
I use both of my brakes when I come to a stop, and not letting myself panic I applied strong pressure, but not suddenly, or in a heavy manner. It was a reflexed I'd done a hundred times on my former, smaller scooter, but the DT was probably a 100 lbs heavier. Instantly, I felt the back tire begin to slide out to the left, then straighten out as I let up on the brakes, then re-applied a few times, enough to slow the bike. I went over the white, end-of-the-lane line by about a foot.
I know that 70% of my stopping power is in my front brake, but as I said, I use both of my brakes jointly when I stop. Are here conditions and situations were asymmetrical use of your brakes apply?
(I also discovered that my DT isn't the ABS version)
Second question -- have a lot today. I've recently starting using my right hand middle finger to hold my right (front) brake controls when I'm at a stop in traffic, or a light. I've noticed that on my DT that if I hold the left (back) brake control it causes my entire frame to vibrate from the engine. By using only my right hand middle finger I have more digits on my throttle, allowing better grip/control on the throttle and a better brake-to-power transition when the light turns Green or the car in front of me allows me to go. It's a big difference in the take off speed from a stopping position.
Does anyone do something similar to this?
-Wolf
-
As a new rider to my DT 300 I've noticed that braking takes longer, and given the heavier weight and faster speed, the bike can skid more easily than my Yager. Yesterday I was coming back form a tutoring job in a section of Philly I'm not too familiar with. As I riding down a two lane road -- two going one way, and two the other, one known for its sharp twistys, and a flow of traffic speed 20-30 mph above the post 35, I was taking a sharp turn that ended suddenly at a traffic light moving from Yellow to Red.
I use both of my brakes when I come to a stop, and not letting myself panic I applied strong pressure, but not suddenly, or in a heavy manner. It was a reflexed I'd done a hundred times on my former, smaller scooter, but the DT was probably a 100 lbs heavier. Instantly, I felt the back tire begin to slide out to the left, then straighten out as I let up on the brakes, then re-applied a few times, enough to slow the bike. I went over the white, end-of-the-lane line by about a foot.
I know that 70% of my stopping power is in my front break, but as I said, I use both of my brakes jointly when I stop. Are here conditions and situations were asymmetrical use of your brakes apply?
(I also discovered that my DT isn't the ABS version)
Second question -- have a lot today. I've recently starting using my right hand middle finger to hold my right (front) brake controls when I'm at a stop in traffic, or a light. I've noticed that on my DT that if I hold the left (back) brake control it causes my entire frame to vibrate from the engine. By using only my right hand middle finger I have more digits on my throttle, allowing better grip/control on the throttle and a better brake-to-power transition when the light turns Green or the car in front of me allows me to go. It's a big difference in the take off speed from a stopping position.
Does anyone do something similar to this?
-Wolf
The left brake/vibrate thing happens on a lot of kymcos and is normal.
Please don't tke this wrong but based on this thread and your post about riding in the rain I wonder if you have ever taken a motorcycle safety course.
If you locked up the brakes on the DT it has nothing to do with the brakes, you're going to fast for the situation. With ABS you would avoid the skid but my bet is you would have still stopped beyond the line. If the line was a stopped car you hit him.
It has nothing to do with the weight of the scoot. I'll stop a DT in the same distance from the same speed as a Yager. It's a skill set that's learned by doing. Have you practiced "panic stops" on the DT?
I'm won't give rider instruction over the Internet as that can lead people down dangerous paths. Instructions for what you ask should be done while sitting in the bike.
Good luck and be safe.
AMAC
-
Actually, I have taken a safety course, and graduated top of my class with the best score. My decision of not driving in the rain is just my personal preference, not for lack of experience. I've ridden in summer squalls and flash floods. I like to protecting my scooter from bad riding conditions. That's just my style of riding. If I can't scoot somewhere I can take a local train, or our car, so I don't depend upon my scooter as my only mode of transportation, but I ride whenever possible. If the weather looks bad, I won't ride.
The braking problem was related to speed. I was riding on a road where I wasn't familiar with the location of a stop light while coming around a turn. Given the flow of traffic and my own speed it's safe to say I was going too fast. Having only ridden my new scooter for 23 days I'm still getting used to the feel, center of gravity and how she handles. I'm looking for some PLP first chance I get. With my other scooter I had made stops like that dozens of times without the brakes locking up. My DT operated differently. I take how I ride seriously, and was furious at myself for allowing the brakes to lock like that. That's part of why I posted this thread -- is there a better technique, or is it a matter of PLP panic stops practices to get used to my bigger bike? I'm not trying to avoid practicing on my DT, but to expand on my skills.
My real question is more about asymmetrical application of brakes. I generally apply both brakes equally when stopping. I've heard of motorcycle riders who favor front and back brakes in different situations. I was curious if anyone practiced such techniques, and why.
-Wolf
-
Sounds like you'll be fine with a little more time in "that" saddle.
Yeah most will tell you they use more of one brake than another. I tend to be lighter on the rear brake than the front in most instances but that not a by the book thing.
AMAC
-
Thanks AMAC for your honest comments. My real challenge is to find a new parking lot to practice in. The cops are now observing the one I originally used years ago and tend to chase out anyone hanging out, even honest scooter riders like me.
-Wolf
-
I had a Yager and loved it! Love my DT more. Practice with the front brake on an open parking lot with no traffic until you can get that tire to howl. That is just short of wheel lock. Do not relax your grip on the left brake lever if the back wheel slides as that can dump you when it hooks up with the road. Steer into the skid until stopped. Yes, one has to use assymetrical or differential braking since, as you pointed out, more braking done by the front than rear. This requires a harder squeeze on the right lever than the left. Front brake disc is generally larger than the rear and the front usually has more pistons and bigger shoes. All this contributes to the rider dynamic in stopping. However, when you get in that "oh, crap!" mode, it means ya goin' too fast. Your mind MUST be ahead of the situation so you won't need your superior skills to bail you out!
Karl
-
Thanks Karl. Great points. I'll be riding the same route today before heading home, and will be sure to watch my speed. Will be searching for a lot this weekend as well.
Do you still have your old Yager?
-Wolf
-
http://www.motorcyclegiftshop.com/motorcycle_braking.html (http://www.motorcyclegiftshop.com/motorcycle_braking.html)
-
Good article, bluesin. Thanks for posting. Like the section on motorcycle slang.
Anyone have pointers on how you handle the brake controls while at stop.? I've been using the right hand middle finger to hold the brake controls, while the rest of my digits are on the throttle, ready to add power when a light turns red, or the traffic moves. Pick up and take off are direct and faster.
-Wolf
-
Good article, bluesin. Thanks for posting. Like the section on motorcycle slang.
Anyone have pointers on how you handle the brake controls while at stop.? I've been using the right hand middle finger to hold the brake controls, while the rest of my digits are on the throttle, ready to add power when a light turns red, or the traffic moves. Pick up and take off are direct and faster.
-Wolf
Over the years it's become second nature to "tap" the levers at a stop. that creates a flashing brake light. Can't tell if it helps or not but I've never been rear ended.
Of the DT when the light turns red you can dust pretty much anyone else around you.
AMAC
-
It's addicting too.
When I'm coming around a curve and hit traffic, a light, or stop sign I tend to tap my brakes to signal the guy behind me. I was rear ened once -- at a toll both.
Guy was actually stopped behind me and for some reason stepped on the gas and hit me just as I paid my toll. Guess the bastard couldn't wait. His insurance
paid for the damages, and I'm sure his rates went up. He was a well known sports news-caster in our area.
Still grin when I think of how pissed off he must have been.
-Wolf
-
Anyone have pointers on how you handle the brake controls while at stop.? I've been using the right hand middle finger to hold the brake controls, while the rest of my digits are on the throttle, ready to add power when a light turns red, or the traffic moves. Pick up and take off are direct and faster.
-Wolf
If I'm at a stoplight where I might roll I do something really simular. Not a fan of the bike shaking with the rear break on but it is what it is.
-
Never use the front brake going into a turn, or on a slippery surface. You brake before going into a turn and even then only a slight rear braking action is safe if needed. Slippery applies to wet, sandy, paint stripes, leaves or etc. Only apply the front brake when headed straight on dry clean pavement. This is for regular riding, doesn't apply to racing or dirt riding. Also if you find you need to crunch on the front brake too often in my opinion your traveling too fast or too close. There's always the OH sh** moments where nothing but stomping on the brakes apply but stomping on the brakes can worsen the situation under the right circumstances. Always try to have an out, by that I mean enough distance to jump a curb, swerve left or right, speed up, turn into a driveway etc. There's no advice to cover every situation but key principles can avoid getting hit or laying it down.
-
Don't have the Yager, traded it for the DT. 2wheel makes a VITAL point (s) about using that front brake and these points and others are stressed in MSF basic rider course. Listen to MSF instuctors and guys like 2wheel and others on this forum; NOT to mouthy, old rags like I did years ago. The boners that walk up and say, "Yeah, I used tho have a bike but I had to lay 'er down. Used that front brake!"
Karl
-
Yep, have read that letting off of a skidding rear tire can high-side you when it grabs the road again....they tell me.
Problem is, of course, it is almost instinctual to get off of the brake when you feel the skidding and side slip...
Darn few of us would have the dirt tracking bike skills to instinctively just let the rear hang out there and carry on!
It is tiring to look for sand, gravel, tree branches in corners - even at a very low turn in speed.
Or to travel unfamiliar streets with traffic pushing from behind.
People who fly through "the twisties" make me change to the Food Channel.....
I commute to work maybe 15 miles ea. day over well known city streets before sunriset & afternoons, in all weather.....
And leisure ride & explore country roads at sun up - only. To avoid traffic. Once I am familiar with the roads I'll ride 'em most any time except sun down.
My hi viz gear and riding style & riding times keep me in my comfort zone. Otherwise I keep it parked and change the oils for fun.
Yes, rear braking while stopped transfers the vibes to the scooter. As for the fingers at a stop - our county safety instructor tells us to count to three before moving off from a stop light. I raised my hand and told him that if I did that I'd be pushed through most intersections by the gum chewing 20-something girl in the F-150 behind me.
So, I do hesitate a moment & check both ways looking for signal running cars....figure if I get rear-ended by the stationary car behind me it won't hurt too much and I can retire on their insurance. So, I don't worry about finger placement or out dragging the cars beside and behind me - more concerned about the ones with my flanks in their sights in the middle of that intersection.
Stig
-
Great points guys. These are the kinds of things I've been hoping to hear, and learn. I have a few a questions. I apply both brakes equally. Generally I slow into a turn by letting up on the throttle, take an outside line to look as deep into the turn as possible, begin to counter-steer and add power to keep the angle of the bike on the line I want to take into the curve. If I need to apply brakes, say suddenly, I work to straighten the bike first (of course that's the idea, it all depends on how you react to an 'oh sh--!' situation, but that's why you practice panic stops) before applying the brakes (something I to practice on my new scoot).
Does letting off/avoiding the front brake at turns refer to road hazard and bad condition situations mentioned by 2wheelfun, or is it something you do in any turning situation?
The use of the one finger brake hold at stops isn't to out race drivers around, or behind me. I've found it's just more efficient in getting my scooter moving from a still position. The bigger the car, truck or bus is in front of me the more of a head start I give them, allowing on coming traffic a chance to see me behind the vehicle i'm following. That way I won't be an unintended target for a left hand turner.
See and be seen is my constant riding strategy.
-Wolf
-
You brake BEFORE going into a turn, not going into one. If a slight correction is needed when going into the turn only slight rear braking action is suggested as being safe. That means do not lock up the rear wheel in a turn. Also sticking close to the inside line on a blind curve can be fatal, ever notice a lot of people drive over the inside line when going around a blind corner? That does give you a better view going into the blind curve but it gives you less time to react to a car driving over the inside line. The middle or right side wheel track of a car is the best position going into a blind curve. That position gives you the best scenario to avoid a car driving over the inside line going into a blind curve..............inside line means the dividing line separating different directions of travel. Out side line is the line or edge of the road aka the shoulder of the road.........this is a great topic, it makes me think of anything I can do to improve my chances of avoiding a collision. A lot of the above applies especially here in CO where blind curves are abundant. Here blind curves can contain a lot of debris from falling rocks, dirt and sand falling from the mountain sides. That is a dangerous situation because your reaction time is 1 or 2 seconds at best before the situation computes in your brain.
-
Another thing I do in HEAVY city traffic is to ride with 2 fingers on both brakes levers. I do it where the feeling is loose, not tense on my fingers/hands. It can save you a second in reaction time for an idiot driver. On my Kawi 250 that applies to the front brake lever, on the rear brake pedal the tip of my foot is resting on the pedal but not enough to trigger the brake light. In heavy traffic you need to be more aware/alert to your position in traffic and OTHERS around you, especially side traffic in front of you. Cars turning left, departing driveways, changing lanes and yes keeping an eye on the rear too. That includes cars to the rear in adjoining lanes. You should try the 2 finger brake lever position, you'll notice the difference in reaction time. With a rear brake pedal it works by not having to reposition your foot from the peg to the brake pedal to apply the downward pressure. Only downward pressure is needed in the reaction. Kinda like riding with your heel on the peg and the ball of your foot on the brake pedal.
-
Thanks for the terminology clarification 2wheels. I didn't mean the outside/dividing line as you described it, but setting my scooter up on the outer side of a curve before entering it in order to get a clear view. This is well before hitting the turn's apex where you are vulnerable to a car coming around a blind curve. If the on coming traffic won't allow for this (Kelly and Lincoln Drive in Philly are known for this), you stay in your middle part of your lane. This diagram does a better job of what I'm trying to describe.
http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/attachments/art-safe-riding/16722d1259790544-turning-motorcycle-mk7lfb.jpg (http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/attachments/art-safe-riding/16722d1259790544-turning-motorcycle-mk7lfb.jpg)
I generally cover my brake controls with my fingers, but the two finger idea will be one I'll be working on. Thanks!
This is one of the roads where I was commuting on, Lincoln Drive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vIinNjQqgQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vIinNjQqgQ)
This is the drive I normally commute through. Kelly Drive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CCH9Dx8l6s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CCH9Dx8l6s)
-
Doubt if any of these guys were going too slow.
Get it wrong and....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7AxSVeqPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7AxSVeqPE)
I like this guy.
HART ...slow speed corners....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdHEYedYzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdHEYedYzk)
Safe braking on a scooter...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEVAiVEFmTg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEVAiVEFmTg)
Stig
-
Gonna have to check those vids out Stig, can't do it right now checking out some porn.
-
Mmmm … Scooter porn. Twist and go. ::)
-Wolf
-
Great videos, Stig. The last one was very informative and clarified many of the things 2wheelfun was talking about. More things to learn and practice.
Thanks again,
-Wolf
-
I flicker my brake light while approaching a stop or slow, before the real braking starts. I flicker it while stationary as well. Picked that up at training as part of classroom discussion, not curriculum. I haven't been rear ended either, but I don't really know how helpful it is. Been riding 7 years.
Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
-
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/how-to-avoid-crashing-emergency-braking-riding-tips-brake-check-accidents?src=SOC&dom=fb (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/how-to-avoid-crashing-emergency-braking-riding-tips-brake-check-accidents?src=SOC&dom=fb)
-
Good article Blue. Thanks for posting. Reading the comments is also useful.
Springdew, I agree about brake tapping. I use it when coming to a stop around a curve or at the bottom of a hill when there's a car following. It's a cell phone world and you never know how well the car behind you is paying attention. A few years ago while commuting to work I watched as a woman rear ended a truck in the lane next to mine. I'm pretty sure I saw her on a cell. Since then I try not to stop directly behind the vehicle in front of me, but off to the side if possible. This way I'm not in a position to get sandwiched between two cars if I'm ever rear ended.
-Wolf
-
I've been experimenting with counter steering lately and it works. It's counter intuitive but science of physics proves it. I always thought leaning was the best steering method, it isn't. Never gave it much thought till recently. I just rode and let my instincts take over. Now that I'm older I want to be a safer better driver, adequate/qualified description works for me, not a super star or think I'm the greatest. I don't like that attitude. Check out this vid if you have time.........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWLIfChUwg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWLIfChUwg)
-
Going to try and find some time to watch the rest of the video. Thanks for posting.
Not sure if its a youtube video, an article, or a discussion on a forum -- memories fuzzy on it, but it was about counter steering vs. leaning. Someone took a bike and welded the handlebars so it couldn't turn. The idea was to see how much a bike could turn just from leaning. Each person who tried it found it took about 400 meters to maneuver the bike in a half circle. What they found was that essentially leaning alone did not turn the bike, turing the wheel did, but more, the bike's wheel turned naturally in the opposite way, even if a lean was initiated. At slow speeds turning the handlbars works, but as the bike becomes more controlled by the gyroscopic motion of the wheels at higher speeds, counter-steering takes over.
These forum discussion may explain it better:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/beginners-corner/turning-lean-counter-steer-99827.html (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/beginners-corner/turning-lean-counter-steer-99827.html)
-Wolf
-
I like the HART guy vids too, watched all of them. At stop light, HART says to use only rear brake, if get rear ended front brakes tend to cause scooter to flip, with rear brakes only, will tend to slide forward. And yes, don't stop up close in the middle behind another vehicle "the crusher zone" lols. Cheers
-
I'd say unless your front brake is really locked you're probably going to just move forward if rear-ended from behind, and not flip over your front wheel. The one time I was, was at a tollbooth. The guy waiting behind me must have thought I had moved out, and stepped on the gas. He probably wasn't going more than 5 mph, but being an SUV it was enough to throw me and my 300 lb. scooter forward and nearly out of the tollbooth area. I probably had my front brake engaged as I was using my left hand to pay the toll.
- Wolf
-
I have no experience with being hit from behind. I am just repeating suggestion from HART vids. Makes sense to me, after watching vids I don't use my front brakes at stops anymore. Cheers
-
I tend to use both brakes when coming to a stop, but I hold my front brake when stopped just to keep my bike steady, to signal to those behind me that my brake is engaged, and also because on my DT my bike will vibrate if I just hold the rear brake in. Seems to be a deign flaw. If you’re hit from behind at a good speed by a 4 wheeled vehicle, flipping over will be the least of your worries. However, comfort is connected to riding security and peace of mind. If it works I say go for it.
- Wolf
-
I tend to use both brakes when coming to a stop, but I hold my front brake when stopped just to keep my bike steady, to signal to those behind me that my brake is engaged, and also because on my DT my bike will vibrate if I just hold the rear brake in. Seems to be a deign flaw. If you’re hit from behind at a good speed by a 4 wheeled vehicle, flipping over will be the least of your worries. However, comfort is connected to riding security and peace of mind. If it works I say go for it.
- Wolf
Vibration at rest while holding rear brake is not a design flaw. Just the small engine running vibration which was somewhat isolated down there - is now connected & felt through the brakes, rear wheel and into the chassis.
Stig
-
I have 49cc 2T's (People and Super 9 LC's) and the vibration doesn't bother me. I guess 300cc single 4T would have a lot of vibration at idle with rear brake applied?
My son-n-law had Super 8 150 4T he didn't keep because of the lights and seat. He especially didn't like the light going dim at idle, thought was dangerous. So, he sold Super 8 150 and got Honda PCX 150, which has great lights and no vibration. I still like my 49cc 2T Kymco's better than Honda, especially for the money. Cheers
-
Thanks Stig.
It was a surprise for me the firs time I felt it. Never had the experience with my old Yager so my first impression was it was an unforeseen complication with the engine design. Still feels weird, so I just hold in the front brake.
- Wolf
-
I'll add a couple of things based on 1)riding my mom's 90cc 70's Vespa and 2)braking technique I learned in downhill mountain biking course.
1) That Vespa has horrible front end dive under braking. It shifted the weight, actually, kicked the weight forward. Almost felt like it was trying to launch the rear wheel off the ground. Your new scooter may dive more than your old. If it's bad, you might want to get a stiffer front spring. Additionally, a firmer damper can help.
2) Our mountain bike teacher showed us that he could go from 20 mph to a dead stop in just one bike length. I went from about 10 bike lengths to about 2. Granted, there's a lot less weight on a bicycle, but the technique he taught was amazing. Basically you push your heels down below the pedal as you are coming to a stop while shifting your ass to the back of the bike. It drives both tires into the ground. It's hard to do this on a scooter, but it is an active braking technique that will give your rear wheel more grip.
And like a lot of other people said, slow before the corner, slightly accelerate out of it.
Be safe everyone!