Many questions, one post - S8 150 restrictions/maintenance/specs/mods/more

[Kevin]

OK, so I've been fishing around in these forums for a couple of weeks now. Ever since I took apart my Super 8 150 [new to me - had 1679 miles on it] trying to figure out why it wouldn't start again after my first ride. It helps to turn the Run switch back on after I turn it off. I'm a dummy... but I learned a lot about the scoot in three hours.  :p 

My ride:
2009 KYMCO Super 8 150cc Blue n’ Yellow, had 1670 miles on it when I bought it February 24th (Five weeks ago). In those five weeks I’ve ridden about 1300 miles and now have 3050 miles on her. I’m in love… but I’m looking for a little more all-around performance. I get that changing rollers to get a faster acceleration is gonna drop my top end speed, and getting more top end means taking longer to get there. I just feel like there is a happy medium somewhere up there where I can accelerate a bit faster and get a slightly higher top speed.  Is that some Holy Grail or is it common to get a little more of both?

I have learned a TON of great information from reading through this forum and thank everyone for sharing what they know! I found the manual, oil change video, conversations about derestricting, and lots more, but still have several questions and I wanted to consolidate them into one thread, so here goes nuthin’. Feel free to smack me around a bit for letting lose a whole novel here.


1)   Do the Super 8 50cc 2-stroke and 150cc 4-stroke use the same CDI?
a.   It seems odd to use the same discharger for 2 and 4 strokes (and different displacement), but I can never seem to find a real distinction on scooter parts websites or in these forums. I have looked at my CDI, and I see no magic Pink or Violet wire I can disconnect to remove my rev limiter. I have 6 wires going into the plug. I’d love to just buy an aftermarket CDI with the limiter moved up and timing retarded if anyone can recommend one they’ve used.
b.   I also have seen references to grislr’s (sp?) photos of how he got his headlights working after a CDI swap, but his photos have been taken down I think.
2)   Oil cooler? I live in Phoenix and will be riding all summer. Anyone have experience with one?
3)   Restricted Boss? Washer, full, none?
a.   I’m probably gonna open the variator housing soon and will find out, but wonder if I should buy a non-restricted boss before I do.
4)   Exhaust? Which scoots can share the same complete systems? Does anyone have a system they particularly love or hate?
5)   What size carb is on this stock? I have seen some say a 24 mm and others say 26 mm. I see a 30 mm available but doubt I will need that anytime soon. I do plan on messing with the jets as necessary.
a.   How do you do a mid or open throttle plug chop on the street under load? There’s no clutch…
6)   Air intake and jets?
a.    Foam or cotton (K&N)?
b.   I understand a jet increase is needed and probably will do the exhaust at the same time. I ran the scoot for just a little bit without the airbox (air filter still in place, and just ran a circle around my apartment complex) and it just bogged and farted along… It was starved for fuel. I have read from someone about bumping up two jet sizes. Any idea what is in there now?
7)   Original belt or Kevlar?
   Tires? Size change? Larger in front to fix the speedo accuracy? Can the speedo be recalibrated to be accurate? Brand and model of decent tires people like? I feel like they’re gonna wash out from under me if I get a good lean on. I have seen a reference to some Avons.
9)   Lights dim at idle. Found grislr’s (sp) links, but the pages are moved/empty. Anyone have anything?
a.   I do not feel like bumping the idle up is a viable solution. To get the idle high enough, the clutch would be right on the verge of engaging or it would be engaged.
10)   Foot pegs spring back with the one touch?
a.   This would be really nice since I ride from the passenger position with my feet on the pegs. I’m considering just putting regular motorcycle pegs on if the threading is right.
11)   Clutch springs – 1000, 1500 and 2000 RPM ones are what I have seen. I pretty much drive like the throttle is an on/off switch. Would putting in a 2000 rpm clutch spring help me keep RPMs higher for longer, or should I be changing roller weights and ramp shapes for that more?


I’m sure I have a hundred more questions at least, but am trying not to rewrite the encyclopedia here. I’ll be doing some cosmetic stuff pretty soon and plan to document all the before and after so I can make some How To videos (that’s what I do for a living) and will post them up to my vimeo account and link back to here.

Thanks all for your patience and input! Happy scooting!

--Kevin


EDIT - answered some of these questions below. 

[Dion]

Whew - lots of questions, a lot of them have been approached on other threads. First, I' think you need to define your 1/ initial use of the scooter and 2/ the ultimate use. There is a major difference in a street ride which will be used for errands and groceries etc and a full tilt, WFO bike. The big key is life expectancy. Race machines are normally rebuilt two or three times during a season ... my focus for smaller bikes is to keep them running as long as possible, if I want to (or need to) ride faster,or a longer distance, I take a bigger bike. For a WFO machine, the ARHRMA machine I'm involved in has two spare 1 litre engines and transmissions ready for installation when the test engine finally claps out.

I just opened up the CV covering for the first time and was apalled at the amount of rubber all over everything and the poor condition of the belt and rollers ... at less than 800 miles. It seems the builder made a cosmetically attractive bike but scrimped on some of the parts which (while easy to replace) aren't often looked at.

As for your involvement and needs, explore the YouTube content, read all the aritcles on the forum, think about what you want to do ... as far as changing to a more open exhaust, expect your gas mileage to go down and your performance to suffer. If you decide to not re jet - look forward to a seriously lean condition and probably a siezed piston. Jetting is important - especially as all bikes currently are shipped in a lean jetting condition to pass emissions.

For a good resource which doesn't promote itself too well, try Enviromoto ( http://enviromoto.ecrater.com/c/709265/150cc-gy6 ). Jeremy is becoming my principal resource for aftermarket parts, and he is both a straight shooter and a nice guy. ((( NFI !!! ))) 

Good luck - questions are us ... answers cost more.

Dion

[juice]

I don't think your 150cc came with restrictions . If you do redesign the running gear your reliability will probably suffer . My advise would be to leave the scoot as it was designed or trade it in on a scooter or motorcycle that suits your needs . Good luck .

[Kevin]

Thanks for the advice Dion and Juice!
I'm not looking to mod it too much and make it a racer - at least not until I have another daily commuter. Then I'd love to go nuts with it and club race or something if I can find a group here in AZ... We have two cars, so I don't completely depend on it for transport right now, but still would like another bike to back her up.

Reliability is important, but I would like a little more top end if I can get it without losing the acceleration she has right now... I'm thinking of maybe something to do with the variator. I took the cover off, and I can see it's not running all the way up so I assume it has a restricted boss. If I can replace that and get 3-5 mph more at the top end, I'll settle down - for a few weeks anyway. 

I'm too dumb to leave anything with a motor stock for too long... it's an addiction.

[juice]

Someone here was experimenting with different length variator belts to allow further expansion . I don't think that was entirely successful . It may have been Wordlsinger , I havent heard anything from him for a while . Maybe someone else will remember more . Good luck .

[juice]

You might also want to try the search feature here . I just ran a search on the word "kevlar" and came up with 3 pages of responses .

[Portland Steve]

Kevin,

I own a Super as well and have had trouble finding certain parts.
I don't have many answers for the performance mods that you are thinking of.
Personally, I just want to keep the scooter running in stock shape so it is good for resale.
I did add some foam to the seat as that was my biggest complaint.  That cost me $5 and an hour of my time.
I think the best investment would be on the drive train (kevlar belt and heavy duty clutch and or variator).
The best performance gains seem to come in this area.
I would also recommend better tires.
If I was going to mess with the engine, I would probably start with a jet kit and a new exhaust.
However, these motors are effectively disposable (did you notice there is no oil filter?) and are not designed for high performance.  If you keep them clean, they should serve you well for a while.  If you beat on them or try creative modifications, you may kill it.
I think that the lights go dim on idle because of the way the power is generated and don't think it is an issue.  It may be a power saving design.
Good luck with your tinkering!

[Kevin]

... 6,000 miles and 6 months later ...

snapped the belt this morning on the ride to work. I can't complain at all. It lasted 9,046 miles stock. 

replacing it with Kevlar.
swapping the variator for one from Naraku with 11.5 gram weights
2000 rpm clutch spring - maybe lighter after test riding.
EBC pads and shoes going on at the same time since they've been under my seat for about three months now


Still need to get new tires...   

--Kevin

[Kevin]

Got her back Thursday morning and haven't stopped riding long enough to post the results of the upgrade...   

I am seriously blown away by the improvement!!

I thought there may be some negligible difference in either top end speed or quickness of acceleration, but was completely caught off-guard by the increased acceleration AND top end speed!!


Before and after comparison:

Acceleration

Then - It was mostly controled by engine speed (meaning the engine didn't really spool up until I was rolling along at maybe 20-25 mph). The clutch would engage pretty early in the throttle and we would build engine RPMs and speed together at a decent pace. It was fun... I would typically be a little quicker, or even with cars at the stoplight if we were front-row.
Now - Holy crap! Engine revs build immediately (I figure at least twice as much higher RPM per mph as before up to almost top speed) and now the scooter accelerates like the throttle is a rubber band. The engine jumps up in revs as soon as you twist, and then (almost immediately) the speed picks up faster and faster and faster and faster until the CVT catches up with the RPMs. This is ridiculous fun now!!! I mean, I am braking in places I normally never needed to in the parking lots I frequent every day at work and home. Those front row stoplight ‘races’ are no contest now unless someone really is wanting to race. I twist, and pull away at every single light now.     I actually pop the front wheel up from a dead stop. But I do ride from the passenger position and weigh 240 pounds. I have to lean forward from a dead stop to keep the front end down. We think this is more a function of the clutch fly-out springs (not replaced) “popping” the clutch and engaging quicker instead of slow and smooth. I like it. It stays.

There was a significant flat spot in acceleration if I was rolling along at 30-40 mph and hit the throttle - it would chug along up to speed as the engine RPMs increased…
This flat spot is completely gone – not moved up or down in the speedo somewhere – gone! I have tried roll-on pulls from every speed in 5 mph increments, and she pulls hard at every speed! Even when I’m doing 55 at half-throttle, I twist and have to lean forward!

Top Speed

Then - Top speed was regularly at about 61 mph +/- a few mph. Maybe get up to 63/64 on a really long straight. She seemed to have had a bit better top speed when I first picked her up. I recall being pretty impressed when she would get to almost 70 mph… I suppose time and wear probably sapped some of that out. I would occasionally go on the freeway if there was plenty of traffic to keep speeds below 55 mph. Posted speed around here is 65 mph, and there is no way I could keep up with the ‘normal’ 75 mph flow of non-rush hour traffic.

Now – I figured I would be disappointed in the top speed after getting such gains in acceleration. When I picked her up from the shop, I didn’t really have much opportunity to ‘get on it’ and stretch her legs out. Surface streets during rush hour… I did notice that I was now using the throttle for actual speed regulation instead of using it like an on/off switch. I would catch up to cars and have to cut back to half or even quarter throttle to stay at their speed of about 50-55 mph. Then I got closer to my office and a wide-open mile-long stretch… 73 MPH!!!! NOT downhill – NO tailwind! Just a long flat stretch and wide open throttle with me tucked in behind the windscreen like a retarded salt flats racer from the 40’s. Seventy-three friggin miles per hour?!?! OK, OK, I know – the speedo is inaccurate, so I do know I’m not actually doing 73. BUT, I am only comparing my own before and after speedo numbers. That’s about 9-10 mph faster! And it gets there sooner than it got to 61! That 63-64 mph from before was pushin’ it after about 2 miles of no stop flat-out straight. Now she just thrums right up to 72-73 mph without batting an eye.

I am completely thrilled with what The Urban Commuter hooked me up with, and am happy to pay them the retail instead of internet price to keep them in business. Probably only cost me 30-40 bucks more to shop with them than online anyway, and I like having a place I can walk into and talk to real people – no offense. 

I would have done the work myself had I decide to ‘upgrade’ instead of breaking down only a mile from their shop. I could have gotten it done in my own timeframe and saved some cheddar, but, like I said, I like to support local shop owners when I can.

I didn’t buy from these sites, but here are the parts I used, with the exception of the clutch spring (I think it’s a Malossi, but would have to verify with Pat)

The belt is a Malossi Kevlar 795-19.8-30 for Kymco and Malaguti scooters.
The first place that popped up in my google search when I put in Malossi 795-19.8-30

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/795-19-8-30-malossi-x-kevlar-cvt-belt-kymco-malaguti.html


Naraku High Speed Variator Kit for Kymco 150
This comes with 10.3 and 11.5 gram rollers for use in the Kymco 150s. We have different final gearing requiring heavier weights.
Again, didn’t buy from this site, but this is what the shop got for me.
http://www.scootertronics.com/variatorkit2.html

2000 RPM clutch spring put into my existing clutch which Pat said was still good and had no gloss on it.

For anyone who is skipping to the bottom because I friggin’ write too much:

GET THE NARAKU HIGH SPEED VARIATOR AND KEVLAR BELT WITH 2000 RMP CLUTCH SPRING.

It’s awesome.


Thanks!
--Kevin

Oh yeah, I did the brakes at the same time. EBC of course. Thank God I did! This thing hauls ass now!
!

[Wally Wildfire]

Hi all. New here. Nice post Kevin. How is it running? Any problems? Can you tell me where you got 2000 rpm spring and brand name? Thanks brother.... Keep scooting!
Also, did u use the lighter weights for the variator  or did u keep the original weights?

[Kevin]

Hey Wally,

It's running great and I haven't seen any downside yet. I seem to be getting better gas mileage as well, but will know better in a couple of weeks after I track it regularly.

As for the clutch spring, I think it's a Malossi, but pretty much all 2000 rpm springs for a GY6 are the same.

The Naraku High Speed Variator kit comes with weights already sized for the Super 8 150cc (take a look at the link above to see what all comes in the kit), so I used those and tossed out my flattened OEMs.


Thanks!
--Kevin

[Wally Wildfire]

Sweet. Ordered the Naraku... My scoot is new. Do u think I should keep the stock spring and belt for now? Only have 400+ miles on it...
PS. How can I post a pic on profile? It won't let me me add it. I'm using an iPad.. Could that be it?

[Kevin]

Awesome Wally!

I would definitely do the spring now. It matches rpms to the variator. Your stock belt should be fine for a while.

[Wally Wildfire]

Kevin, is it difficult/dangerous to do it? Is it the big spring or the 3 little ones?

[Wally Wildfire]

Just wanted to update you guys. I purchased the variator kit from scootertronics two weeks ago. Did research on them and it doesn't look good.  I called numerous times and they don't pick up. When I did talk once to MIKE he said he updated my order. On NOV 22 nd The order read will ship in 24 hrs. It's now the 28th...nothin! I keep calling no one answers and have emailed 3 times.

Just putting this out there in case someone is considering ordering from them.. Research them..awful complaints.. And it's looking like they r accurate.  Bummer..

650 PM EST
UPDATE: as of the writing of this post, it's on it's way! Received a tracking number!! Come home to papa Mr.naraku!!!