Author Topic: Water in gas... intentionally.  (Read 6608 times)

Yager200i

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Water in gas... intentionally.
« on: May 19, 2015, 04:33:22 PM »
Hi, all.

I've been doing research into fuel additives to improve fuel efficiency, and I ran across the genius of Sir Harry Ricardo. He gave us large parts of the technology that are used even today in modern high-compression engines. In 1921 he patented the Racing Discol 1 and Racing Discol 2 (RD1 and RD2) fuels. Apparently RD1 gave as much as 20% better fuel efficiency, and more power.

It was comprised of 80% ethanol, 10% acetone and 10% water. Apparently, to protect their IP and patent rights, they also added a bit of finely ground bone meal, which confounded chemical analysis, but made the exhaust stink to high heaven. Of course, that needn't be added.

Given that most fuel is 10% ethanol now, that 10% ethanol in regular gasoline can be converted into RD1.

This can be done by adding ~38 ml of acetone and ~38 ml of water to each gallon of regular E10 gas. Unless my math is off... please correct me if it is.

{ EDIT: My math was off... it's not 47.32 ml, it's ~38 ml.
One gallon = 3785.41 ml.
10% of that (the 10% ethanol in E10 gasoline) = 378.54 ml.
10% of that (the 10% water and 10% acetone) = 37.85 ml.
So there would be ~76 ml of 50:50 water/acetone added to each gallon of E10 gasoline. }

So for each fill-up of ~2.5 gallons for a typical scooter, something on the order of 95 ml of water and 95 ml of acetone would be added. A small amount of Lucas upper cylinder lubricant, to ensure fuel lubricity, would also probably be a good idea.

Apparently the complete miscibility of acetone in water and ethanol binds the water to the ethanol, and the ethanol to the gasoline, making a homogeneous mixture that doesn't separate out. The ethanol and acetone add to the octane rating of the pump fuel, while the water provides an expansion medium that far exceeds that of combusting fuel in air (water expands to steam at approximately a 1:1600 ratio, at the same pressure), adding to cylinder pressure.

Given that gasoline itself and the ethanol in the gas are solvents, the relatively mild solvent acetone shouldn't affect any o-rings, gaskets, etc. But it, along with the steam in-cylinder, should help to keep combustion deposits from forming in the cylinder.

What do you guys think? Has anyone tried this?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 06:27:32 AM by Yager200i »

MN_Scoot

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2015, 08:11:41 PM »
Hi, all.

I've been doing research into fuel additives to improve fuel efficiency, and I ran across the genius of Sir Harry Ricardo. He gave us large parts of the technology that are used even today in modern high-compression engines. In 1921 he patented the Racing Discol 1 and Racing Discol 2 (RD1 and RD2) fuels. Apparently RD1 gave as much as 20% better fuel efficiency, and more power.

It was comprised of 80% ethanol, 10% acetone and 10% water. Apparently, to protect their IP and patent rights, they also added a bit of finely ground bone meal, which confounded chemical analysis, but made the exhaust stink to high heaven. Of course, that needn't be added.

Given that most fuel is 10% ethanol now, that 10% ethanol in regular gasoline can be converted into RD1.

This can be done by adding 47.32 ml of acetone and 47.32 ml of water to each gallon of regular E10 gas. Unless my math is off... please correct me if it is.

So for each fill-up of ~2.5 gallons for a typical scooter, something on the order of 118 ml of water and 118 ml of acetone would be added. A small amount of Lucas upper cylinder lubricant, to ensure fuel lubricity, would also probably be a good idea.

Apparently the complete miscibility of acetone in water and ethanol binds the water to the ethanol, and the ethanol to the gasoline, making a homogeneous mixture that doesn't separate out. The ethanol and acetone add to the octane rating of the pump fuel, while the water provides an expansion medium that far exceeds that of combusting fuel in air (water expands to steam at approximately a 1:1600 ratio, at the same pressure), adding to cylinder pressure.

Given that gasoline itself and the ethanol in the gas are solvents, the relatively mild solvent acetone shouldn't affect any o-rings, gaskets, etc. But it, along with the steam in-cylinder, should help to keep combustion deposits from forming in the cylinder.

What do you guys think? Has anyone tried this?


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wkreps

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2015, 01:22:44 AM »
I've certainly never heard of this so I'm just going to give opinion in response.

Ok, so you make it sound plausible but my first instinct is that water doesn't burn, how can that help. Also introducing water into the system makes me wonder if there will always be some residual left somewhere in the exhaust system leaving it to corrode sooner than later.

The water is there to help increase cylinder pressure but why? Is this because with better pressure you use less gas and therein lies the better efficiency?

If I was to move forward with something like this I guess I would first make up the mixture (shaken, not stirred). Sorry, Bond just jumped into my head. Undiagnosed ADD popping in there. Anyways, mix it up and let it set for a month and then scientifically (with your eyeball) look for separation of the chemicals. From there I may drop a complete new mixture into an old  lawn mower or something like that. Mow your yard 5 times with regular gas and measure how much you use. Try the "mixture" for 5 mowings and see how much you use. I'd probably put in a new spark plug each time for something additional to look at at the end of each 5 mow session. Maybe even before and after pictures of the cylinder and head for each. Record the time the mower was running for each session as additional data. Gather as much info as you can and in the end, make some decision about what has happened.

Where did you hear about this? Do you have (credible) links to research? I guess the gas companies are already adding water to gas cause that's what separates over the winter if you don't drain your carb right?

I had a neighbor tell me all about adding acetone to his tank for better gas mileage several years ago. Never had the courage to try it on one of my cars (expensive experiment if it goes wrong). I'm not sure if he ever went through with it either and he's a mechanic who can tear down and diagonose pretty much any combustible engine. Me not so much.
Wayne



Yager200i

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2015, 02:13:47 AM »
I've certainly never heard of this so I'm just going to give opinion in response.

Ok, so you make it sound plausible but my first instinct is that water doesn't burn, how can that help. Also introducing water into the system makes me wonder if there will always be some residual left somewhere in the exhaust system leaving it to corrode sooner than later.

There's water in the exhaust system already. For each gallon of fuel you combust, the engine forms approximately a gallon of water that's then chucked out the exhaust. Unfortunately, the water is usually formed late in the combustion phase from the hydrogen in the fuel and the oxygen in the air, and thus doesn't contribute much to engine power or fuel efficiency.

The water doesn't combust, it's merely there as a superior expansion medium to add to cylinder pressure. A side benefit is that it quenches combustion temperatures, so less NOx is created. It also acts as internal cooling, so less radiator-based cooling is required.

The water is there to help increase cylinder pressure but why? Is this because with better pressure you use less gas and therein lies the better efficiency?

Yes, the phase-change of water to steam is a better expansion medium than air. Not only does it expand more than air for any given temperature delta (water flashing to steam vs. air expanding due to temperature increase), but it also helps to quench and moderate the high combustion temperatures that cause NOx creation.

If I was to move forward with something like this I guess I would first make up the mixture (shaken, not stirred). Sorry, Bond just jumped into my head. Undiagnosed ADD popping in there. Anyways, mix it up and let it set for a month and then scientifically (with your eyeball) look for separation of the chemicals. From there I may drop a complete new mixture into an old  lawn mower or something like that. Mow your yard 5 times with regular gas and measure how much you use. Try the "mixture" for 5 mowings and see how much you use. I'd probably put in a new spark plug each time for something additional to look at at the end of each 5 mow session. Maybe even before and after pictures of the cylinder and head for each. Record the time the mower was running for each session as additional data. Gather as much info as you can and in the end, make some decision about what has happened.

Where did you hear about this? Do you have (credible) links to research? I guess the gas companies are already adding water to gas cause that's what separates over the winter if you don't drain your carb right?

I was actually researching additives, came across acetone, and was wondering why some people experienced great gains, some experienced no gain, and some experienced losses... especially when using E10. In doing further research, Sir Harry Ricardo and his Racing Discol fuels came up, and it dawned on me that it's not the acetone alone that's causing an increase in power and fuel efficiency, it's acetone's miscibility with ethanol, the components of gasoline and water that was allowing any water in the tank to be used as an expansion medium in-cylinder. It also lowers the surface tension of fuel droplets, thus the droplets are smaller, thus providing more surface area per droplet, thus allowing them to evaporate more quickly.

You have to be careful when adding water, it can cause a tremendous increase of cylinder pressure. Thus the increase in power some have seen when adding acetone. It must have scavenged any water in the tank and sent it along with the fuel. Those same people later saw their gains in power and fuel efficiency mysteriously evaporate, going back to what they normally were. Most attributed this to their ECU adjusting to the fuel mix, but I suspect it's just that all the in-tank water was consumed. Relative humidity of the intake air may play some part, as well... humidity-laden air would have just enough time to mix the water with the ethanol and acetone before intake. So those who saw fuel efficiency and power gains on wet days, only to see those gains go away on other days, may have experienced this.

Here's some info on Ricardo's RD1 and RD2:
-----
http://www.vintagenorton.com/2012/07/benzole-alcohol-fuel-and-sir-harry.html
Writing in 1992, the late Dr. Joe Bayley told me that alcohol was used at Brooklands prior to the Great War, both as a fuel and as an additive. But he went on to say that it was towards the end of the 1922 season that Discol really became popular.

RD1 (RD= Racing Discol)  was made up of 80% Ethanol, 10% acetone and 10% water. It was mainly used for short races. RD2 was 80% Ethanol, 10% Benzole and 10% Acetone - used mainly for longer races - while PMS2 (Pratt’s Motor Spirit), which JB considered probably the best of the three, was a simple mixture of 80% Ethanol and 20% Benzole.
-----

Benzole (aka Benzol) (a mixture of benzene, xylene and toluene, usually) is a carcinogen and the reformulated gasoline mixtures are attempts to remove or minimize these constituents from gasoline.

I had a neighbor tell me all about adding acetone to his tank for better gas mileage several years ago. Never had the courage to try it on one of my cars (expensive experiment if it goes wrong). I'm not sure if he ever went through with it either and he's a mechanic who can tear down and diagonose pretty much any combustible engine. Me not so much.

I'm going to do much the same as you suggest... mix up a batch in a glass container and let it sit for a while to ensure nothing settles out. Given the miscibility of acetone in water, ethanol and the components of gasoline, it should all stay homogeneous, unless the  mixture ratios are way off. Then I'll give it a try in the FrankenYager if all goes well with the glass container test.

If worse comes to worst, I'll be draining the tank and refilling with regular gas. I don't expect it'll do any actual damage to the engine.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 03:31:14 AM by Yager200i »

wkreps

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2015, 03:32:12 AM »
What's you plan for data gathering to see if it's really working besides MPG?
Wayne



Yager200i

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2015, 03:38:13 AM »
That's about all I've got is MPG. What other metrics should I be collecting?

Yager200i

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 03:39:47 AM »
Here's another one, a patent:
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/us/Future-fuel/US7717969.pdf
2% 5W-30 synthetic motor oil
78% clean water
18% acetone
2% denatured alcohol

That completely replaces gasoline with a mix of oil (presumably to add fuel lubricity), water, acetone and isopropyl alcohol. That's a lot of water.

And another:
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/us/Fuel-combustion-engines/US4432308.pdf
25% acetone
75% water

Apparently, the lower the compression of the engine is, the more acetone you need, and the less water you can use.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 03:51:55 AM by Yager200i »

BettinANDlosing

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2015, 03:57:11 AM »
Something about putting water through your engine feels like fingernails on a chalk board in my brain, I already go out of my way to get gas without corn, and therefore water. To me, it's the amount of ENERGY you can cram into the combustion cylinder. I'll be interested to see what you find, i know I've found bikes with bad water/ethanol contamination that physically did not run.
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Yager200i

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 04:18:17 AM »
I think of it as "how much can I make the expansion medium expand using the smallest amount of energy input". The more we can push on that piston (while using the minimum amount of energy to generate that push), the more power we'll get out (using less fuel).

Thus a more efficient expansion medium than air alone makes sense.

wkreps

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 04:25:08 AM »
That's about all I've got is MPG. What other metrics should I be collecting?
I'm not sure other than trying to gather data from anything that the "fuel" touches like mentioned earlier. Just trying to diagnose what is happening other than, "WOW, I get good gas mileage!" Cause so what if you do and then your engine is blown a 1000 miles later. If that happened I wouldn't be thinking about my great gas mileage, I'd be thinking, what the heck happened to my engine. Data is king and it can be good, bad or indifferent and each one tells a story of what is happening. Better MPG is good data but cylinder scaring or scoring is bad data. Weigh the data and decide if it is worth it to move forward. Armed with just the MPG data it is an easy solution. Add in the cylinder scoring and it makes that decision harder (yet more informative). If you don't want to gather the data you'll have a hard time convincing other people to try it. Most people want proof of a 20% increase in gas mileage if you just do "this". If you don't arm them with the ammo to make a good decision, most won't be buying what you are selling.

I use a cylinder head temp guage on my scoot from trail tech. If it is supposed to run cooler, then that would be an area which it should show a difference. Frankenyager may be on his last leg and you want to play around. All well and good but if I went into as much research as you have appeared to then I would put that same energy into proving that it does or doesn't work. I also mentioned some other things to look at in a post above.

You must let us know how this goes.
Wayne



Yager200i

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 04:45:31 PM »
Part of the process of improving the bike's fuel efficiency is instrumentation... after I get the electric mag-drive coolant pumps installed, I'll be instrumenting the bike with exhaust temperature, cylinder head temperature, coolant temperature, fuel injector duty cycle, fuel pressure, TPS, T-MAP, oil temperature, road speed and coolant pump speed data readout and recording.

Some of those will be required to configure the electric coolant pumps initially and calibrate their sensors (TPS, coolant temp, head temp, exhaust temp), but they'll stay afterwards because I'll be dropping in a new programmable ECU, and they'll come in handy tweaking that.

But for right now, all I've got is the OEM ECU and tank-to-tank MPG.

scrollderf

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2015, 03:26:13 AM »
You got it Yager. I am with you.
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Yager200i

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2015, 04:18:24 PM »
Here's something similar to what I'll be trying... but rather than passing acetone through ultraviolet light then introducing the altered acetone to the fuel, as they do in the patent in that PDF, I'll be generating ozone in the intake manifold, putting the acetone in with the fuel (along with water), heating the fuel and relying upon the mixing of fuel and intake air to introduce the ozone to the acetone and thereby create ketone radicals to improve the combustion process.

http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/us/Method-apparatus-improving-fossil-fuel/US4149853.pdf
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 04:33:58 PM by Yager200i »

2wheelfun

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2015, 09:16:44 PM »
My solution to that problem is to just pull up to a shell gas station and fillerup. Worry about the important things in life like steaks on the grill, what Jessica Alba looks like nude etc.

0BARK4322

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Re: Water in gas... intentionally.
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2015, 11:34:48 PM »
LOL
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