cold weather starting problem

[Rozz]

I live in Canada.  For the past several weeks I have had difficulty starting my 500ri.  Dealer has replaced the computer chip to facilitate cold weather starts.
Bike is tempermental.  Refuses to start and then after 1/2 hour or so starts with no problem--sometimes.

Don't know if this is an electrical problem or a battery problem.  Battery tests ok.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Rozz

[winginman]

Tell us more...  Did it start getting hard to start when the temperature dropped below some point or did it just suddenly get hard to start?  If it was a battery issue it would crank very slow or not crank over at all.  I am assuming when you say it is hard to start you mean it cranks over but fails to start.   1) It's flooding when cold and letting it sit for half hour lets the gas dissipate and it starts, 2) computer or fuel injection is not richening up the mixture for cold starts like it should and what ever the problem is it does not happen on the next try a half hour later.  Ether way it's under warranty the dealer should be able to get it fixed.  These one cylinder fuel injected engines can be quite temperamental.  You did not say that once it starts -- does it run normal and restart ok when turned off.  And does this only happen after sitting for how long -- till it gets cold, overnight, a couple of hours?  All would be clues for the mechanic who is trying to troubleshoot.

So far my 500Ri starts right up, but then it's not really cold here yet.  It's only been down to 36 at the coldest and I did not have the scooter last winter when it was really cold.  Guess I am gonna find out soon enough.  Wish I knew more, but the X500 is fairly new to me as well.  Maybe someone else on the forum has had the same thing happen to them and they figured it out.  Keep us posted on the progress. 

[Rozz]

Hi Winginman,
I have a little more understanding now so I will try to explain a little better.
I had trouble starting in cold and damp conditions overnight.  Yes, once the scooter started no problems for the rest of the day.  Then the battery died, completely--I had it plugged into a tender which may or may not be faulty.  Or the battery may be faulty - don't know.
Dealer found out that the standard computer chip is good for weather above a certain degree, not quite sure what, could be somewhere in the low 30's.  I don't think we'd been that low yet, before last night at least.
I had the chip exchanged a week ago for one that handles cooler temps.  The recommended setting was 2-3. Still the bike wouldn't start.
Dealer went back to the company and they said sorry for the mistake but the setting should be between 0- and minus 3.  Dealer came out and reset the computer but my battery was dead.  Had to boost from the kawi, bike started after much cranking.
Punch line:  as I understand it--the computer chip business has to do with the richness of the fuel to the injectors.  So yes, there was a flooding component to the problem.
Apparently the settings are trial and error.  You might ask your dealer what sort of computer chip is in your bike.  This is warranty item but I doubt they will volunteer it to you.

[Rozz]

BTW the mixture needs to be leaner for cold starts, not richer--or so I'm told.

[winginman]

I hope it wasn't your mechanic that told you the fuel mixture needs to be leaner for cold starts rather than richer.  Remember the days when your car had a carburetor and there was a choke.  The choke system was there to richen the mixture up for cold starts.  Same goes for fuel injection except the computer chip tells the fuel injector system how much fuel.  Now having said all that there can be the problem that you can get the mixture too rich and there is too much fuel and the engine floods and will not start.  Used to happen when the choke would stick in the old days.  If the problem started all of a sudden and the chip is not fixing the problem there may be a problem with the fuel injection itself or even a poor spark from the ignition system.  Things a good mechanic should be checking out when the chip did not fix the problem right away.  They should be keeping the scoot overnight and trying to start it cold in the morning themselves.  And a good hot battery is also a requirement for good cold starts.  You should not be having a battery problem this soon unless the starting problem has caused the battery problem.  The battery tender even at 1 or 1.5 amp charge should have charged the battery overnight unless one or the other is bad.  Battery should be charged with a good regular charger and load tested to see if it's going to hold the charge.  I am so curious to hear what the problem really is.  Maybe throwing the problem up on the tech section of the forum will get the attention of one of the Kymco gear heads or mechanics who can help with the diagnosis.      How about it guys, any of you reading this?

[Rozz]

You sure know a lot more about mechanical things than I do.  Pretty much what you're saying is what I've been hearing from my mechanic.
I should add, my dealer is the best and I have absolute confidence in him--
Maybe I should just be patient and let him figure it out.

Are you still riding?

We're planning a Christmas holiday maybe in Georgia.  Bringing the bikes. 

We had a very wet summer but I got a lot of riding in.   We were still riding last weekend, don't know if I'll get out again here before the spring--it's is getting colder.

[zombie]

Hi fella's. I did see the post about the lean start, and was distracted w/ work. (doesn't happen too often) I believe wingman hit it on the head. EFI stands for electronic fuel injection, meaning EVERYTHING involved in starting your scoot is based on the battery. The computer is the MOST sensitive component to voltage drop. Your starter is the highest draw followed by the injector pump followed by the IAC circut. When the starter draws amperage it in effect reduces voltage. Add to that the amps required to run the fuel pump= less volts. add to that the amps to open the IAC (idle air control) less volts. The computer is designed to operate in a VERY specific voltage range. I have not researched the Comp. on your scoot but I PROMISE you it is falling below the parameters for which it can function. Ok w/ all that, where did the trouble start? When you want to water the lawn you don't start at the end of the hose, you go to the spigot. MAKE your dealer check the charging system FIRST. Have them do an operating amperage test to determine if there is an unusual draw on the system. Could be a bad hi beam switch is draining your charging system. (just as an example) There are too many possibilities to fix the problem here, but the correct place to start (no pun) is at the spigot. There are too many "parts changers" for my taste. If you are better informed you can make a better presentation to your "mechanic". A new set of eyes will always see something different. If they are your eyes all the better. Everyone knows they will get it right for you, just try to keep it under your control; It's your scoot. Best of luck       Zombie!

[winginman]

Yep we are still riding, at least through last weekend.  Started raining last night and has not stopped.  Gonna rain rest of the week.  Hoping for a dry Saturday so I can get in some more riding time.  If I go more than 2 or 3 days I start getting PMS (Parked Motorcycle Syndrome) and then I am not in a very good mood. 

[Rozz]

Thank you Zombie for taking the time to explain EFI to me.  I honestly had no idea that so much depended on the battery--but I understand what you're saying.
I am getting a new battery since its reliability is questionable due to a series of errors that are too lengthy and dull to go into at the moment.
We'll see after that.

Hi Winginman--i thought you guys had all the luck with southern weather and all that.  We had a beautiful day here today, nearly 50 and sunny.  Rain tomorrow and then Friday is expected to be good riding weather.  All the same I look like I'm headed to a snowmobile when I go out with all the clothing.
PMS--I like it--i will tell all my friends!

[Shaka]

50 sounds chilly!  It has been 70 yesterday and today here in Wilmington, NC!

[Rozz]

And I converted our celsius degrees to Farenheit for my Amer. friends.  It's really only 9C.  That's why we're heading south in a month--I would love 70 degrees.  Sounds positively tropical!

My bike has gone to the shop for further diagnosing--still won't start. 

[zombie]

It's strange that the U.S. Is the only nation using Imperial measurement. At least as far as I know. I remember 40 years ago being told in school, "The U.S. is going to standardize w/ the rest of the world!" Does my "F" still count?

[Rozz]

Now I learned in school that Imperial measurement refers to the gallon as measured by the Brits.  Yours is a US gallon and about a quart shy of the Imperial one.  I get confused with mpg because I don't know if the ratio is to US gallon of gas or Imperial which is what we have in Canada.  So when you calculate our price per gal. you must remember that our gal is larger than yours.
I have never heard of Imperial being used in reference to weather.  Our metric is Celcius and I don't know if it is the same as Centigrade, but I understand that there is more than one metric system in the world and we don't necessarily have the most popular one.
We still refer to our height in feet and inches and our weight in lbs.  Our children have no clue how large an inch is and we can purchase meat by the lb or by the kilo.
You see I have not enough to do today--it is 42F or about 5.  42 minus 32 divide the balance by two to get the conversion to Celsius.
My starting problem appears to be a battery problem.  Now replaced.
We head to Georgia mid December--hope it's not too cold to ride.
RozzW

[Shaka]

Your temp conversion is a good way to roughly calculate.  The conversion is actually 5/9 not 1/2 or Tc = (5/9)*(Tf-32); Tc = temperature in degrees Celsius, Tf = temperature in degrees Fahrenheit.

So, Tf = (5/9)(42-32)
Tf = 5.556F

Yeah, guess I'm bored too!

[zombie]

No wonder I got an "F"!